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| 6 cyl Bristol cars Type 400 to 406 - restoration, repair, maintenance etc |
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20-11-10, 03:07 PM
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Interestingly the gasket on ebay also has this hole missing and appears to have the same date as Eric's ie 23.5.89 so presumably a common source. I just wish there was a simple way of checking "hole or no hole"! Regards Richard 
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20-11-10, 03:40 PM
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In my humble opinion , if engineers decided to add an extra hole circa the 6th cylinder ... I may reasonably think that it's because they had an overheating problem or they wanted to improve the cooling Everybody is free to accept if whether or not it's important . But I have a tendency to trust in the experience of engineers who decided to make an extra hole As for me , original gasket is supposed to be as it is in original drawings Is it normal that no recall has been made ?
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20-11-10, 04:28 PM
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6 cyl Gaskets (head)
I don't think BCL was selling a defective product. It was a gasket that
worked for BMW and one little hole may make a 10% difference in cooling. The BIG issue was the lack of a satisfactory answer to the client and by sayng he was the only one to complain, it was sort of blaming the customer. I disagree with the comments made that a professional installer would have seen the difference. Maybe.... maybe not. What all this has shown us is that there has been some "overselling" by BCL. They gets their supplies of spares were they can...same as the rest of us. Therefore shopping with BCL, B May, Spencer Lane Jones, the Australian club and others may well be all the same. Claude brought up his hub cap issue...and years later his hub cap is still "under observation" at BCL or perhaps used as an ashtray! A refund or the offer of a discount on future purchases would have been a more appropriate answer. All a matter of communication. Cheers, Dorien
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20-11-10, 04:28 PM
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6 cyl Gaskets (head)
Now Eric for once I do agree with you.
It might even have been me that mentioned the BMW 328 but simply as a guess, and because the packaging was written in german, wasn't it? Doesn't someone know both engines, who could resolve this? What did Bristol say? Or did you not ask? Ian.
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20-11-10, 05:20 PM
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I am certainly not a BMW 328 expert but there is a Czech website, :: www.bmw328.net :: which offers spares for the BMW 328. On this website there is a picture of the original block and head gasket which I have copied into the attached file and compared with Eric's pictures. Lo and behold to my untrained eyes, the BMW appears also has that elusive hole! Also don't forget that many BMW 328's have Bristol heads. By the way the gasket on the Czech site costs 72 Euros! Hope this is of interest Richard
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20-11-10, 05:49 PM
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See photo attached ! When I came to my machine shop with this rarity , the guy was laughing ! First because the thickness of the gasket was about 2.5 mm instead of 1 mm , modifying the volumetric ratio and he told me that copper cylinder head gaskets are not exactely appropriated for high volumetric ratio ( 10:1 in my case ) For the surplus : I have just one right .... to shut up
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20-11-10, 05:14 PM
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BMW 328 seems to be different
I found this web site in Czech Republic http://www.bmw328.net/downloads/ersatzteilliste.pdf
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20-11-10, 05:20 PM
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6 cyl Gaskets (head)
If you click the link to other item from the seller of this gasket you will find a listing and contact details for TT Workshops, also a listing for a different pre war BMW gasket. It must either be TT Workshops or someone connected with them who is selling this gasket. Ask seller a question perhaps?
TT have worked on pre war BMW's and Bristol's for as long as I can remember so their thoughts on the matter would be quite interesting. Geoff.
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20-11-10, 09:08 PM
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British Peculiarities
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This is a direct outcome of the Norman Conquest where the winners confiscated all the wealth of the nation, and then allocated just enough to the losers for them to survive and keep the economy running. Over the generations, the losers (Anglo Saxons, Celts and other pre-Normans) began to integrate this scarcity mentality into their belief system. When money took over from land as the core definition of wealth, this scarcity mentality was so deeply embedded in the genetic make-up, that it continued even as the losers became wealthy. By wealth I mean all the food and clothing one can imagine, a warm home that one can own, education, suffrage, freedom and means to travel more than 10 miles from ones birthplace, an infinite choice in entertainment, etc. This embedded national psychic damage can be baffling as well as maddening for any non-Brit when they go to buy something from an Englishman. The American attitude is lowest price, best product, best relationship with customer and give something away for free. The British attitude is highest price the market will bear, provided of course we are paying attention to price, eccentric product, relationship? what's that have to do with business?, and even if it was free to us, we'll charge you for it. Gradually this attitude is going away as GB plays in the global market and learns the new rules. So our friend Eric is first of all encountering a cultural roadblock. He just doesn't get it. Next distinction has to do with size. In a company the size of BMW, one has thousands of engineers and business types all working like a bee hive to make sure that everything works with precision. In a company the size of Bristol, we are remarkably reliant on the knowledge carried around inside the skulls of a few gentlemen. Not only that, but instead of just focusing on the last 10 years of their product (which is all that is required by law), they maintain a knowledge base that expands each year, going all the way back to 1944. Clearly this is not a business. These gentlemen do this because they are British. It's like cricket. On the one hand, this is both charming and delightful, as well as useful. When one needs to know something, first-hand knowledge is there. On the other hand, it can result in the sort of problems Eric encountered. While it is easy to puff about how this is bad form or incompetence, in fact, it is a natural outcome of the structure of a small company. It is why small companies do not survive in the car industry. Bristol survives only because their price tag is not governed by competition, they have a niche. In the end, Eric is applying the wrong standard. He should accept that in owning a Bristol based product he is working with a small group of enthusiastic men who have chosen to work to keep an eccentric, distinctly British icon alive, and as such, the problems he has comes with the territory. He can prod them to do better, and no doubt that will help in the specific case of the missing hole, but overall, these sorts of things will happen because of the inherent nature of small businesses that do their own engineering (if you doubt this, try buying software from a small company). I do note that Eric has not complained much about the Arnolt Motor Company which is where he should be focusing his ire. After all, they commissioned and sold the products, Bristol was merely a wholesale supplier. Of course the reason he does not complain about Arnolt is death... both the owner and the company died. And that is the point. He is targeting Bristol because they are still in business, and he throws their own aspirational words back at them when they fail to attain. Eric, my advice to you is to sell up, move on, and select a marque that has no survivor. Bond with a vintage restoration place that will make from scratch whatever you need and have more fun and less angst with your hobby. After all, vintage cars are not a necessity of life. We play with them to have fun, to enjoy the company of other collectors, be it racing, or the more genteel jaunt across the countryside enjoying bucolic vistas whilst stopping in a country inn for a meal and glass that brings great joy. Claude
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20-11-10, 09:57 PM
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Quote -- We play with them to have fun, to enjoy the company of other collectors, be it racing, or the more genteel jaunt across the countryside enjoying bucolic vistas whilst stopping in a country inn for a meal and glass that brings great joy. Quote --
I agree Claude. It's all a bit of a hobby and a bit of fun for most. Maybe Eric is a car dealer and profit is a major concern ? Still no reason for him to be treated badly ,but the way it is dealt with is and rectified maybe different. Hardly any wonder that the "Nutter! comment is mentioned when one minute there are threats of legal action and adverts / web sites showing all correspondence, then weeks later, all we have is Eric's word that any of this happened but no facts ! And of course the gasket that is used by many owners but not good enough for Eric's car. ( although I agree that he should have been advised about the hole modification ) All of the conspiracy theories Eric dreams up don't help his case either -- not one correct yet ! In fact ramblings of a Nutter. Unless Eric does what he says and shows us something, he will always be looked at with a degree of doubt. Contrary to what Eric believes, to begin with, I think most people that read the initial postings sympathised and supported his fight for justice. I think all the venom, accusations of collusion, rants and none of the evidence that was threatened / promised has lost a lot of that initial sympathy and interest. P.S - I don't work for Bristol and as far as I am aware nobody else does that posts on this forum and I dislike Belgium people no more than any other Nationality. Anyone know where I can get some 411 windscreen rubbers - quick
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20-11-10, 10:45 PM
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British Peculiarities
I think that Claude's words about 'British Peculiarities' are absolutely
spot-on and I plan to have them etched somewhere and framed, then hung on the wall of my practice. If somebody does not understand the peculiarities of classic British cars, why buy one? Go ahead and buy a classic racing Porsche....then (as it happened to me 4 days ago) you will be asked Euro 350 for a manifold and Euro 2200 (twothousandtwohundredeuros....) to shoehorn it into the engine bay. Does it mean that I feel that I have any rights to complain with the best from Stuttgart? No. They are doing what they have to do, that's it. Cheers from a very rainy Italy, Stefano
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21-11-10, 12:11 AM
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[quote=pasini s;3936]I think that Claude's words about 'British Peculiarities' are absolutely
spot-on (/QUOTE] And I don't think any of us English people would apologise for that, and why should we ? It's probably why Bristol exist and have kept going :- ) Maybe we are all been mistreated and treated unfairly ! - but do we care ? Or are the cool machines we drive around worth it ? I know a lot of makes of car that make so much more sense as a classic but ..................... don't want one. Although my London Cab is cool also :-)
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21-11-10, 07:47 PM
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if your quoted expensive Porsche manifold didn’t have the correct number of holes !!! Would you accept it as it ?
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21-11-10, 01:49 AM
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In my opinion , a cylinder head gasket is good or not but it can be in an intermediate condition It suits or not your engine type & specification I am interested to know how many customers would have accepted to have this type of cylinder head gasket installed if he ( she) has been previously informed . This without any consideration of price of course ! Greg would you ? The biggest problem they have with me is that I have written no lies I am attacked only on my lack of English knowledge None of my assertion on technical problems have been contradicted !!!
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21-11-10, 02:55 PM
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why d'ont you answer my question ? Would you accept to have such parts installed on your car ?
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21-11-10, 03:56 AM
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I suspect Bristol was in trouble by the time Toby Silverton came along and has survived the last decade only because they were bought by a billionaire. It would be interesting to see their current annual P&L and balance sheet. Quote:
From the home page on their web site: "We crave instead integrity of purpose and an unmatched level of engineering perfection." If the Eric had been told when he bought the gasket that it was not to original specification and needed to be modified before it was used on his engine, that would have been okay. Eric could then make an informed decision. But leaving the customer to find out by chance that the gasket isn't quite right is grossly irresponsible at best. What I can't understand is why don't Bristol punch the missing hole in the gaskets before they sell them. Like many others I am thankful that Bristol still support their older cars. And I'm not fazed by the prices they charge, because I know they have to make a profit and stocking parts for old cars on the off chance they will be needed is an expensive business. But the parts need to be right. I too have been disappointed recently when buying spares from them. I needed some plastic inserts which go in the 411 S5 rear parcel shelf to protect the seat belts. I was thrilled to discover that they could supply them and at a price that didn't make my eyes water. Unfortunately I was disappointed when they arrived because they are nothing like the originals and frankly not fit for purpose. The original ones were screwed in place, whereas the ones Bristol sent to me are designed to clip into place, except they don't because they are obviously not made for a parcel shelf with 10+ mm of padding. The only way to keep them in place would be to glue them to the parcel shelf covering (yuk). Furthermore, they don't cover the original screw holes! See pic attached. Of course this gripe isn't in the same league as Eric's problems, but it is symptomatic of a company that doesn't really care anymore. They are clearly happy to sell spares which aren't really up to the job. I didn't complain to Bristol. I will just move on and try to source some elsewhere. But just because I didn't complain doesn't mean it is right that they should keep selling this item. They should just say, "sorry, that part is no longer available", because in truth, it isn't. Either supply correct parts or don't supply at all. Quote:
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21-11-10, 05:02 AM
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TC
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Are you saying the huge price of the car is too high (implying too much money) or too little (implying the reason you suspect his balance sheet was weak)? In my view, Tony struck a good balance, enabling him to run a business for a lifetime in which the creditors never came to shut him down. He kept overhead low, R&D very limited, and maintained an exceptionally loyal staff. He did not need car magazine publicity, so he did not let them waste his time and spend his resources. If he sold through dealers, he would have to offer a wholesale price which probably would have meant a higher retail price. Given his micro-market that could be fed with one showroom, it would make no sense to have dealers. While you attribute this to being a great marketer, I suggest this is more the hallmark of an effective, albeit risk-aversive manager. When one builds 100,000 chassis per year (for example, the Ford Crown Victoria), the efficiencies of scale kick in. Labour and amortised machinery proportionally drop substantially, as does the cost of steel and rubber. But even at that scale, under the skin the cars do not change that much. Model year changes are for the most part either visual or legislation dictated. To compare a bespoke car with a mass produced one leaves out too much to be useful. Without the Henry Fords of the world, all cars would be at Bristol prices. To more fairly assess Bristol, it would be more proper to say that time operated on a different scale. Think of it like dog-years. In effect they made one car for the first half century or so, not unreasonable for a total production run in the four figures. They changed power train once, but without further R&D, and otherwise just played with the panel beating and a bit of tweaking. And since the original design performed rather well for its intended purpose (which in reality is about 15 mph over the speed limit on roads built to be safe for trucks which handle poorly), the market for it continued without the need for a new or evolving design. We now are witnessing a new era for Bristol, as the Fighter represents a large investment in R&D, derived from outside capital that appears to have been motivated more by passion that the cold eye of the bank manager. Concurrent with this change, we are seeing the resale prices of our vintage Bristols rising, as more people become aware of the marque. Toby Silverton tells us the waiting list is now 18 months, thus his production goal of three cars per week is likely to be running at full tilt. It would be interesting to learn how much of that production is contracted out. A while back I bought a BMW-C1 where the No 2 at BMW in Munich told me that zero percent of the bike was actually made by BMW employees. He also said that even with production cars the BMW content was surprisingly small, although I no longer remember the percentage. ... As an unfair crack... you say your experience with small companies is the opposite. I trust you exclude from that the small company that had your 411 for a decade or so "restoring" it. My experience with small companies is that they are good when their business is not complex. Cars and software are extremely complex with thousands of dependencies that must work together. Thus I have a different expectation for Bristol as a company than I do for Toyota. ... And about generalisations, of course you are right. But generalisations do have their value, and it was in that spirit that I offered it. Claude
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21-11-10, 08:20 AM
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6 cyl Gaskets (head)
I said at the start of all this when Eric first brought up the subject that
all the people selling Bristol cylinder head gaskets are selling the same ones which the German BMW club had manufactured some time ago to fit BMW engines. These are far easier to fit and are better than the old steel corrotrue type which even the works had trouble with on their racing engines. There does not now appear to be any other types available that I know of, so one just has to add the extra hole if it is being fitted to a Bristol engine. While here I would like to put those people right who think that because a 2 litre Bristol radiator does not have a pressurised cap (the Bristol cap is made by Marstons) the system is not pressurised, they are wrong. If you look you will see a boss on top of the radiator with a copper pipe running to the bottom of the radiator, if you remove the plug on top of the boss you will find a bronze ball and spring underneath to give the correct water pressure. My regards, Bellerophon
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21-11-10, 11:19 AM
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 Toby told me that it takes more than 2000 hours to build a Fighter 3 a week mean 6000 hours and if they work 8 hours a day , this means 750 persons are working in Filton . Wow this is not a so small company This also means that they are selling about 120 Fighter a year , @ about £220000 each , it is £26.400.000 GBP a year
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22-11-10, 02:00 PM
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I think Crook achieved high prices given what was actually being sold, compared say with contemporary Astons. Of course Aston went bust several times, but they did develop their own engines in the 60's and 70's. Quote:
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Small companies can also be agile and and respond quickly and effectively to customer feedback. Personally I find many large companies a nightmare to deal with, both as a customer and a supplier, especially Telcos! Kevin
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