LJK Setright

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I've just pulled up a book called The Designers by LJKS that is full of errors too.

Ash are are you going to back up your claim with some facts?

I'm asking only that you provide some examples of the errors in this book, surely that's not too much to ask given the accusations you make and the fact that Setright isn't around to defend himself.

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I'll leave it to Kevin to decide whether or not a link to my websites is permissible

"A" link to your JEL 450 site is quite acceptable, but at the last count you had linked to it 18 times in 13 threads. That's akin to spamming IMO

[Ashley James]

Kevin

I think you are beating this one to death for no real purpose. I've
opined that Setright wasn't always historically accurate and that it
annoyed me and you've stated that he admitted there were mistakes in
his Bristol book. Therefore I think it's reasonable to assume that his
other books have mistakes in them too.

I don't know if any of you read the Automobile which is an excellent
Magazine for historical accuracy, but a couple of months ago Jonathan
Wood (an excellent Historian and writer) did a piece on the 400 and,
as he usually does, introduced new and verified information to the
story. He showed that Bristol paid BMW for the drawings and he better
explained the contrasts between AFN and Bristol, so he filled in a few
holes where Jenks had stuck to facts and avoided politics and Setright
had reported hearsay. It's an interesting story and worth getting
right and Jonathan has done that.

Over the last nine years I've paid thousands of pounds out to provide
properly designed websites that contain verifiable information not
readily available anywhere else simply because I had trouble finding
it when I was rebuilding my cars. I've used some of the most
authoritative sources in the world and where possible relied on
company records. I've also published stories from owners explaining
what their cars mean to them, I've published stories of old car events
from all over the world and for the last six years I've organised
trips to France that have produced visitors from all over the world,
often from Australia and including David Neely (one time Editor of the
OZ RROC bulletin and noted R-R Historian) and Paul Samuels with his
wife who I'm sure you all know. I think it is fair to say that my
sites are now widely regarded as the best resource for the cars they
cover. As I previously stated my webstats show up to 1000 unique
visitors a day, which I think remarkable considering the number of
cars registered with the clubs. I derive no gain of any sort beyond
friendship for all this either.

Therefore if I provided a link to them in response to someone asking
technical questions, needing specialist help or suppliers on your
Forum, it is because it is the best and most helpful way to answer
their question. It is not spamming!

The only reason any of this functions is because we all love our old
cars, we like making friends and we want to help one and other. In my
view links to anything and everything are are part of this as well as
a vital source of knowledge and helpful to us all. They are not spam
either!

Ashley

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

Kevin I think you are beating this one to death for no real purpose. I've
opined that Setright wasn't always historically accurate

Ashley, the purpose is very real.

If we were having a discussion in a pub with a handful of people present I would challenge you to "put up or shut up", but we're not, we're committing opinions to public record on a web site, which is very different.

For your convenience, in my previous post I quoted precisely what you said, which was, "I've just pulled up a book called The Designers by LJKS that is full of errors too".

Now I have invited you to point out just half a dozen errors in that book. In other words, simply back up your argument with some facts. If you are unable or unwilling to do so then I feel you should retract your previous statements and apologise to Setright.

Your call.

Kevin

[Hydroglen]

Well Ashley, I am very happy / pleased with your website efforts and your
generous help when needed. They have saved me much time and aggravation.

Dorien

[Ashley James]

Dorien

Thank you very much indeed for those kind words.

Ash

[Blenheim Boy]

Ashley,

I admit that I’m quite new to Setright’s writing. I do not question your integrity and I respect your experience with cars. But you do seem to expect others to fall into line with your opinion on LJKS, without really providing solid proof as to why. I feel that I have read nothing but slander so far.

Quote: I think he describes one race in a Bristol that was finished either with a hole in the sump or a rod through a block. Very unlikely I'd have thought.

Very unlikely I’d have thought is not proof, that is opinion. Come on now! I consider a man walking on the Moon very unlikely but I could not hope to disprove the Moon landings with nothing but vague cynicism!

Jonathan Wood has unearthed ‘new’ information on the 400. This is wonderful news, but if it really is new information, then how could Setright know of it? He’s been gone since 2005.

From what I have learned of Setright so far, yes, he held strong opinions, or ‘prejudices’ as you referred to them. Who doesn’t?! Strong opinions will always meet resistance. Because you and your colleague Dr Kimberley did not agree with those opinions does not make Setright wrong.

I fully acknowledge the errors Setright made in Bristol Cars and Engines, which he was brave enough to address in print in a later book. Out of interest, would this issue have anything to do with the allegations of the Chrysler V8 engines not being as ‘Bristolised’ as previously thought?

I would recommend Setright’s Drive On! and Long Lane With Turnings to revaluate your thinking.

Footnote: You mentioned Steve Cropley, the editor of Autocar. Despite its heritage, this is a magazine that supposedly had an ‘exclusive’ test drive of some stylists wet-dream concept car that did the rounds a few years ago. The vehicle in question had no engine, and Autocar were caught pushing the car down a hill for photography purposes. I hope that for the sake of the integrity of the magazine and its editor, that the 'road test' was not published...

BB

[Ashley James]

I knew Steve Cropley as Editor of Car magazine not Autocar. Setright
probably made his name for his contribution to this very outspoken
magazine. It was subsequently purchased and decaffeinated by
Haymarket who own Autocar.
The views I've expressed regarding Setright are not mine alone but you
may make of them what you wish. Most people are a mixture of strengths
and weaknesses and I felt you were falling into the trap of seeing all
strength. Far better to enjoy his work and plenty others' until
eventually you see how he compares.
Ashley

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I don't know if any of you read the Automobile which is an excellent Magazine for historical accuracy,...

Hmm, but you said;

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I think reading too many car magazines may be your problem. They are more advertorial and subjective opinion than useful.

Anyway, putting that self contradiction aside for a minute ...

Originally Posted by Ashley James

... a couple of months ago Jonathan Wood (an excellent Historian and writer) did a piece on the 400 and, as he usually does, introduced new and verified information to the story.

What was this information and does he say how was it 'verified'?

Originally Posted by Ashley James

He showed that Bristol paid BMW for the drawings and he better explained the contrasts between AFN and Bristol, so he filled in a few holes where Jenks had stuck to facts and avoided politics and Setright had reported hearsay. It's an interesting story and worth getting right and Jonathan has done that.

It is an interesting story, but how do you know Jonathan got it right?

For a start it conflicts with the Jenkinson account, who described the drawings and engines that the Aldingtons brought back from Germany as "prizes", in other words, the spoils of war. There was no suggestion of any payment at all. The official Bristol/White line has always been that they were "war reparations".

Clearly only one of these stories can be correct. Is it;

(a) the Aldingtons unofficially grabbed what "prizes" they could because the Americans had ordered the whole plant to be crated up ready for shipment, or

(b) if was official "war reparations" and all completely above board; or

(c) it was a purchase and Bristol paid BMW for it.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

Hmm, but you said;
Anyway, putting that self contradiction aside for a minute ...
What was this information and does he say how was it 'verified'?
It is an interesting story, but how do you know Jonathan got it right?
For a start it conflicts with the Jenkinson account, who described the drawings and engines that the Aldingtons brought back from Germany as "prizes", in other words, the spoils of war. There was no suggestion of any payment at all. The official Bristol/White line has always been that they were "war reparations".

Clearly only one of these stories can be correct. Is it;
(a) the Aldingtons unofficially grabbed what "prizes" they could because the Americans had ordered the whole plant to be crated up ready for shipment, or
(b) if was official "war reparations" and all completely above board; or
(c) it was a purchase and Bristol paid BMW for it.

I dip my toes in these shark-infested waters with some trepidation but I would like to point out that the information that Bristol paid comes from "BMW 328: From Roadster to Legend" by Rainer Simons which is referenced by Jonathan Wood as the source of the information. My German version of this excellent book was first published by BMW Mobile Tradition in 1996 so presumably Rainer Simons had full access to BMW archives.
LJKS himself in "A Private Car" published in 1998 gives similar information on page 38 in footnote 45. Maybe he also read the BMW book!
My point is that this story has been out there for at least 10 years so is hardly new!
Kevin, I think your view that only one of the alternatives a), b) or c) could have been true is too simple. Bearing in mind the chaotic situation after the end of the war both in the UK and Germany, I am sure that it is a mixture of all three.
I rest my case!

Richard

[Ashley James]

Kevin

As I previously stated, the main reason why most of us join car clubs
and buy old cars is because we enjoy each others company and we enjoy
making new friends. However Forums seem to bring out the worst in some
people, who for all I know are as good as gold when you meet them. You
seem extraordinarily confrontational and I don't understand why. My
reaction to anyone who expresses an opinion on anything that interests
me is to use it as a catalyst to do some research and see if I think
they are right. I'd never challenge them unless I was certain of the
facts.

The Automobile is different from other magazines, but don't take my
word for it, buy yourself a copy and read it. Mike Worthington
Williams is or was the Chairman of an International Society of
Vehicle Historians and most of the other contributors are members too.
Their articles are biased toward history and they provide their
sources for verification as is the case with the article on the 400
that you've challenged as you usually do.

I do recommend the article in the Automobile for anyone who's
interested in the early history of the company. It really does
introduce new information of worth. And for those who challenge
everything I say, I recommend asking early Bristol Experts like Andrew
Blow and Geoff Dowdle before you decide to part with three quid! It is
the Sept '09 issue and it's likely that copies are still available.

Hopefully you won't suggest this is spamming for the Automobile.

Ashley

[Ashley James]

Richard

I'm sorry You're obviously far more knowledgeable than me, I should
have said new to me.

Ash

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

Kevin
.... You seem extraordinarily confrontational and I don't understand why. My reaction to anyone who expresses an opinion on anything that interests me is to use it as a catalyst to do some research and see if I think they are right. I'd never challenge them unless I was certain of the
facts.

Ashely I am trying to get you to justify the outrageous remarks you have made about a very well respected author, LJK Setright. (Blenheim Boy used the term slander but libel is probably more accurate).

Let me remind you of some of the things you have said about him in this thread;

Originally Posted by Ashley James

As I've said before LJKS was a very good, non technical writer who wasn't terribly concerned with the accuracy of his work. I have his "History of the World's Motorcycles" and a another book of re-gurgitated old wives tales about prominent Classics,...

Originally Posted by Ashley James

He just never took the trouble to get things right and often regurgitated old wives tales that just weren't correct.

Originally Posted by Ashley James

...Setright has always been a bête noir
of mine because he was so careless with the facts.

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I've just pulled up a book called The Designers by LJKS that is full of errors too.

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I've opined that Setright wasn't always historically accurate and that it annoyed me and you've stated that he admitted there were mistakes in his Bristol book. Therefore I think it's reasonable to assume that his other books have mistakes in them too.

Then you top it off with this patronizing statement, as though everyone else but me has the same view as you;

Originally Posted by Ashley James

I should add that I'm not alone with this view and I'm very surprised that you were unaware of what is quite widely accepted.

Several people in this discussion thread have asked you to back up your criticism of Setright and you have refused. You seem to expect us to all shut up an accept what you say as fact.

Like Setright annoyed you, I find your unfair and unsubstantiated attack on his reputation rather annoying. This is probably why I come across as being confrontational.

For the record, LJKS co-authored History of the World's Motorcycles.
You say he was non technical? He started off writing for Engineering Magazine and was elected a Fellow of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers in 1969. This is the highest class of elected membership, and is awarded to individuals who have demonstrated exceptional commitment to and innovation in mechanical engineering. He also co-authored "Valve mechanisms for high-speed engines: their design and development (2nd ed.)" with Philip H. Smith.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Richard

....
LJKS himself in "A Private Car" published in 1998 gives similar information on page 38 in footnote 45. Maybe he also read the BMW book!

Thanks for pointing that put Richard. I obviously need to read all the footnotes!

Of course this means that Setright was accurate where Jenks was not, which is the reverse of what Ashely would have us believe. How ironic.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Richard

I would like to point out that the information that Bristol paid comes from "BMW 328: From Roadster to Legend" by Rainer Simons which is referenced by Jonathan Wood as the source of the information. My German version of this excellent book was first published by BMW Mobile Tradition in 1996 so presumably Rainer Simons had full access to BMW archives.

I would very much like to recommend the BMW 328 book by Rainer Simmons. It is well laid out, very well illustrated (there is even a photo of the delivery note from 29.8.1945 for the BMW engines brought to the UK) and it is a good read. There are about 30 pages on the early Bristol/BMW/Aldington/Frazer Nash connections.
Furthermore it quotes a draft of a letter from the BMW board of management to Aldington in June 1948 suggesting a Bristol investment or participation in BMW for which BMW would establish an assembly line for a Bristol car with improved 2 liter engine and larger body. BMW could manufacture engine and body and the car would be designated a Bristol-BMW.
This letter was never sent. What if......?!

Richard

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Richard

I would very much like to recommend the BMW 328 book by Rainer Simmons.

I will definitely track a copy down.

There is yet another version of events in "The BMW Story" by Horst Monnich. He claims that Bristol promised BMW a share in the profits they made from making the Bristol 400, which he said was simply a BMW in everything but name. But then he also said that Aldington was appointed head of Bristol Aeroplane ...

[lansdownplace]

As a point of order you can't libel the dead.