An Illustrated History (the new one!)

[ozy]

It always amazes me that when topics of this type are floated on many fora, there is always an abundance of armchair experts ready to postulate reasons why 'it can't be done' or 'it would be too difficult'. Will anyone shout up with a can do attitude here I wonder?

I would love to see an erudite, up to date book on the Bristol marque - hopefully not one with creaky didatic prose replete with inaccuracies nor a hopelessly overpriced 'coffee table' offering. Far better a print on demand web based offering than nothing at all! Any budding LJKS types ready to take up the gauntlet?

Ozymandias

[RGSchmitt]

Hi all -

I think the book is a great idea and also appreciate the detailed
list of obstacles - a great checklist to get the project
rolling! Sign me up - I edited my high school newspaper!

Bob

[Peter Grace]

My two pennies' worth.

The two largest 'internal costs' are going to be the editor's time and the
typesetting (an ancient term.)

Like a village cookbook, everyone can contribute a section and therefore the
'writing' part can be divy'd up easily.

I am happy to contribute to the design of it, (as this is my area of
specialty) - subject to an agreed brief and approvals process (we do not
want this run by committee, let alone a forum committee.)

But I can see endless changing and arguing over of millions of facts,
grammar, and most frightening of all, opinion.

Kevin is our resident expert on the pitfalls of personal opinion, as the
founder of BEEF.

And yet, what would be the point of a Bristol book that did not offer a
point of view?

In my opinion, we should (and I don't mean to burden this on Kevin)
investigate writing and editing it online, like Wikipedia, with a similar
approvals process. And once 'finished' then look to publish it the old
fashioned way.

P

[Peter Grace]

Some further thoughts.

1.) What is the aim of this book? Another scrapbook (like the Brooklands
book?), a comprehensive manual for restoration (updateable?), a collection
of essays?, a definitive bible on the marque?
2.) Is the book purely instructional/informational or is it entertaining as
well? If the latter, what provision for high quality photos or
illustrations, or even diagrams?
3.) Is there a legal entity that owns the IP of this book? What happens in
the event of profits or losses? If someone sues, who do they sue?
4.) Can we ask Mr Crook to contribute?

For some reason, probably because it suits me to remember this, it reminds
me of one of my favourite books 'The Cambridge Medieval History'. This eight
volume series took about thirty years to complete, was perhaps the first
truly international effort in compiling books of this kind, was held up by
(I think) both World Wars, and in the making saw a revolution in 'Applied
History' that made the earlier 'narrative' volumes seem out of date by the
time the later volumes were being written and sent to the publisher.

I think unless we define very closely what we are trying to achieve through
this book, the course could very easily be dictated to by the contributions
offered, and you would find we had an eight or ten volume bible on our
hands, something that could never be printed, never be kept up to date, and
like my beloved Cambridge Histories, become treasured purely as a magnum
opus, rather than for the information contained within it.

Of course, that is merely an argument for keeping the whole thing online.

Where is George Mowat Brown? Doesn't he know a thing or two about this?

P

[geo]

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

Some further thoughts.
Where is George Mowat Brown? Doesn't he know a thing or two about this?
P

Well, Peter, as you mention it, it was I who seemed to stir Ozymandias with my cautionary observations. These were not intended to be particularly negative, purely cautionary and based upon once being an editor for a London and Vienna publisher (nothing to do with cars!) and having written and researched two car-based books myself. To address some of the points made:

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

The two largest 'internal costs' are going to be the editor's time and the
typesetting (an ancient term.)
P

These are two of the largest pre-production costs and one should not overlook the enormity of the task

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

Like a village cookbook, everyone can contribute a section and therefore the 'writing' part can be divy'd up easily.
P

True, but if it is to flow and be a somewhat better read than the aforementioned cookbook, much work is required by a single person. When writing any academic or purely factual book, most writers realize that they are working for a pittance (calculated on a rate per hour), but are happy to undertake this task, however, proper proof-reading and editing requires proper payment.

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

I am happy to contribute to the design of it, . . . subject to an agreed brief and approvals process (we do not
want this run by committee, let alone a forum committee.)
P

A generous offer indeed as establishing the pagination, size and where photographs are to appear and so on takes an age — would you also expect to improve any images that are used? To my mind your caveat about an agreed brief is worth noting — without your request being met, the design and editing tasks would be impossible unless one was happy with it appearing in the manner of a dog's breakfast!

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

But I can see endless changing and arguing over of millions of facts,
grammar, and most frightening of all, opinion.
P

The advantage of writing or editing for a recognized publisher is that nearly every one has a rigid house style, so the grammar and spelling simply conforms to that: it is the writer, in connexion (or should you prefer connection?) with the editor who has to establish an equally rigid protocol for dealing with such issues.

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

Kevin is our resident expert on the pitfalls of personal opinion, as the
founder of BEEF.
P

Handing a bit of a poison chalice to Kevin to my mind!

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

And yet, what would be the point of a Bristol book that did not offer a
point of view?
P

Little writing does not offer an opinion, the trouble with the committee job is that it is rarely a consistent and coherent point of view.

Originally Posted by Peter Grace

investigate writing and editing it online, like Wikipedia, with a similar
approvals process. And once 'finished' then look to publish it the old
fashioned way.
P

An interesting idea to investigate, but I do have to say that wearing another hat that involves me in examining research degrees and the like, the much-quoted example of Wikipedia in reality leaves a lot to be desired — when one gets down to fine detail, it is a pretty unreliable source and presents much plagiarism.

Originally Posted by ozy

It always amazes me that when topics of this type are floated on many fora, there is always an abundance of armchair experts ready to postulate reasons why 'it can't be done' or 'it would be too difficult'. Will anyone shout up with a can do attitude here I wonder?

Sorry if I am missing the irony of using the title of Shelley’s Sonnet about hubris, but I feel that in your enthusiasm, you are overlooking some of the hurdles.

Originally Posted by ozy

I would love to see an erudite, up to date book on the Bristol marque . . . Far better a print on demand web based offering than nothing at all

Ah, I fear this is where we would not agree, whilst I should strongly agree with the idea of such a book being erudite and up-to-date, I find it hard to envisage that this would be so with this committee approach.

[Kevin H]

I see my attempts to divert this discussion to the new thread titled "Our New Bristol Publication" have been well and truly ignored

Speaking as another armchair postulator (or should that be postulater?), I believe it would be foolish to go into such a project without identifying the obstacles and work out ways to overcome them. A gung ho approach to a colaborative project rarely results in a happy ending.

One thing we do not need, IMHO, is another LJKS or another book like those he has written. I wouldn't be without his books, I think they are great, but they are like story books and are not much use to people who are wanting to know what to look our for when buying a Bristol, or want to service or restore one. That is where there is a gap in the market. A Haynes manual for the Bristol car range.

Opinion comes into play in areas such as "how to" and "what products to use", and no doubt a few other areas, such as modifications!

For example, the way I remove the bushes from the wishbones on my 411 front suspension is very different from the way suggested by Bristol Cars Services, but it is still a valid method, (and in my opinion much safer).

However, this need not be a huge problem - simply offer all credible opinions on how to tackle a job or what products to use, equivalent parts etc.

This is where we can add value, rather than regurgitating 'history' which we may never be able to verify.

As for the legal and IP issues, I believe we have enough lawyers among us to provide guidance and maybe some documentation. The main objection would of course come from The Company, on the basis that it could detract from their servicing, repair and restoration business, although I personally believe this would be a rather short sighted view.

[Peter Grace]

Sorry George, it was the 'Geo' signature that threw me. Perhaps you have been
calling yourself that for a while, and I did not pick it up.

My 'subject to an agreed brief' is an advertising loophole of sorts that
allows me to back out when the going gets too tough.

I have produced magazines, but not books, although the designers I work with
have done so.

Once a template is agreed to, flowing text and images is not as hard as it
sounds. For a very, very beautiful book, an enormous amount of pickiness is
needed, and this adds time and money. Especially if you get supplied
inferior photos and the like. No one would want to take that on as an unpaid
job, unless of course you knew the book would be printed beautifully
(expensively).

Which is why we need to establish just 'how big' this book might be, and why
I made reference to an encyclopedia like Professor Bury's.

I don't entirely agree with you on the idea of contributions. We have some
very able writers among us. Some are pedants, others polemists. Thor is an
engineer by training, Claude an historian. There is no reason an essay on
the BMW legacy can't sit side by side with a discussion on how to pull apart
an engine. Moreover, a contribution by Mr Crook might end up the most
valuable part of the book, but might not fit with one that had been
intended, say, to be a manual on restoration. I suppose it's a question of
when to stop.

I hope the 'poisoned chalice' comment was in jest, I certainly meant no more
than to point out how easy it seems to be in the Bristol world to get
people's backs up. You know I have nothing but reverence for our esteemed
BEEF founder.

In short, there is no way, in my opinion, that this suggested book would not
be big and painful to produce. That in no way should deter us from
considering or attempting it.

But as my escape exit 'subject to an agreed brief' suggests, I can see that
a badly scoped book could take years to finish and destroy a lot of online
friendships.

The funniest, and most unintended, product of the internet world is of
course a complete disregard for loyalty. You can commit to something online,
and then completely, utterly, snark-like, vanish away. It might be something
worth factoring in when we attempt to write a book with online authors.


Peter