Replacement engines for Bristol 6

[johndschaefer]

On the last point, anyone who buys a new car surely knows they are losing money on the purchase yet people still seem to be buying crapboxes in alarming numbers. If one buys an old car, restores it or even has it restored, then drive and enjoy it for a few years, well in my mind they got their money's worth. I love driving (and riding) old and interesting vehicles. If someone gave my a new BMW I would have no idea what to do with it, except perhaps sell it on and use the proceeds on something of real value. That said, most old cars don't depreciate much if it all, so even from a purely financial point of view they make sense. Not sure about the UK, but here in the States I can run a car valued at US$30k and insure it for about US$200 a year. My wife's modern SAAB costs almost that much to insure per month, is worth far less, and lord help me if I can even change a headlight on that thing.

[406Special]

Dorien, I think the term "misguided" is not entirely appropriate.
When one knows where and when to use a specialist and is prepared to
pay market rate in full and open view of sense and sensibility then I
do not call that misguided. Also, making the car better than say
when new and especially upgrading it in areas where it may well cost
more, like brakes, climate control, suspension and interior, doesn't
mean the owner is all money and no brains. I don't take offence as I
am not a wealthy man nor capable of all the skills needed to work on
my project, yet I do do a lot where I can. In fact it is cheaper for
me to pay someone to do most of the work whilst I do my specialist
effort at much higher day rates than to spend my time doing it, even
if I could, so the equation varies. Largely it all depends on what
one wants as an end result. My cheapest option would have been to
buy for £8-16k a decent 406, sell the original engine and gearbox and
do the re-engine engineering at a total cost probably far less than
£18k after selling the Bristol motor and gearbox. Further, fully
restored and cheap Bristols don't come along all that often and I
waited near 2 years to find the one I have, albeit was in far dire
condition than I wanted. In any case whatever I bought was going to
stripped bare and rebuilt - that was my aim. I wanted something that
I know will be solid and secure for another 20-40 years and which I
can pass on to my son (isn't he a lucky chap). If Bristols were like
some other classics, certainly I believe the 400, 404, 405DH and
Zagato models are pretty much getting there, then I would have
invested a lot more and created a new standard 406. But then Bristol
has always prepared cars to the owners specification anyway,
something I am simply extending to make it more serviceable and
enjoyable now and not as it was in 1959 when I was still on a leash.
It will be My Private Car.

Clyde

[Hydroglen]

I agree.... and yes I also drive for little insurance money, cars that I
enjoy, can fix and are certainly unusual and interesting. But then would
you be happy if your car valued at $30k had cost you say $50k ? I would
call that a loss and the same result as depreciation, albeit under a
different name. The so called "crap boxes" do have a number of advantages
which is why they are being sold.
Advantages ? Well a warranty, the posibility of leasing and or financing, a
good heating and air conditioning system and good fuel economy. Plus the
dealer network " comfort factor" if it fails.
Having just written that, I haste to ad that I would not own one, but then
many of us are a rare breed LOL!
Talking about headlights I had to laugh as I can't change the headlight in
my wife's Ford Ranger pickup truck. The excuse for such a vehicle is that it
has 4 wheel drive and easy to load hay bales for the horses.
If I come across a Saab headlight fix I will exchange the info for a Ranger
fix!
Dorien

[Hydroglen]

Clyde,
My suggestion of the term "misguided" is exactly what that word means. As
you correctly say, if you know what you are doing and are happy with the
results then go for it and you will definitely NOT be misguided. My
suggestion was not about any specific car or person. Having or creating your
own Private Car is great!

However, I have seen many so called "collectors" invest heavily in a project
and then moan that the end result was well short of market trends and values
and or performance. They must have been misguided.

Ex: Master Blow has a nice 403 for sale at an asking price of 25,000 with
new paint. I am not current on UK paint / body prices, but I will guess at
least 10,000 for a respray maybe much more. If somebody were to purchase a
scruffy example of the same car for say 18,000 he would be misguided. He
would have 18+10?+ mechanical service work. That might total over 30,000
plus the aggravation / cost of getting it done. Not a good investment of
time and money.
If you go to a Casino with $1000 with expectations of winning, and you lost,
you were misguided or foolish. If you went there with the idea of fun,
excitement and meeting pretty girls..... and it all happened that way, then
it was money well spent!

Dorien

[406Special]

Dorien, I understand, however your statement was presented as a
generalisation, hence my rebuttal.

For the benefit of other readers, I paid £2k for my complete car less
motor and gearbox - the seller made all his profit just selling the
motor and gearbox. If it wasn't a Bristol I may have got away with
even less, but the major expense will be in body and cosmetic
restoration as that is where the majority of man-hours are spent.
(circa £25k including leather, panels, paint, chrome, rubbers,
suspension and brakes etc.). Add in the motor and its bits and
pieces plus improvements (I keep some of these secret) at around
£8-10k plus a contingency of say £4-5k, then my full budget is about
£40-45k. I guess it might yield £25k if I wanted to sell once
finished - it will be better than a new one with oodles more grunt,
more economical ownership proposition and no one else will have one
like it. But who knows. I certainly don't care as I know if I take
the job to Bristol and ask them to restore it will set me back at
least double that sum, so I am being wise with my money. Even if I
had the requisite skills, I'd still save money paying someone better
than me to do it whilst I made more money doing my day job. It will
retain the simplicity of the original car with the ease of
maintenance and parts of the Volvo drive train, plus some modern
improvements to make it more enjoyable and useable as a regular
driver. I also forgot to say that it now has a later 410 V8 back
axle (running a 3.06:1 LSD) and larger Girling brakes to compliment
the 4-pot after-market front callipers. This was installed so that it
would have around 30mph per 1000rpm in 5th gear whilst haveing the
strength to handle 300+ lbsft of torque and the advantage of the LSD
for handling and cornering. Bristol quoted me a new axle (like a
Blenheim - same as the used one I have) at £5k plus braking and wheel
hubs - say £7k. I bought the used axle for £450 - collected myself
with help from Sam Frost and then had it fully rebuilt by Dana Spicer
in Birmingham for £750 - new crown and pinion, new wheel bearings and
from what we can tell even new axles - and they painted it and
delivered it back to us - that saved me an awful lot of money. It
happens that Spencer Lane Jones (advised me of the service) uses the
service as does Bristol themselves. You just have to find an axle!
My point is that as long as you do the math and research first it can
be done properly by experts but at reasonable costs - at least enough
not to feel guilty or remorse when it's finished.

The price for a superb re-spray in UK will be between £8-12k from the
quotes I have received. My 928 S4 was quoted late 2007 at £7k glass
out and taken back not quite to bare metal. Leather interior is
£6-8k depending on hides and finish/detail. New wood is about £1k
and carpets, sound proofing and other bits and bobs can add another
£1-2k, plus metal work and panels, which will depend on amount of
corrosion and repair work required. My 406 luckily only needs
£2-3k's worth of panel work as it turned out to be in good shape
after paint was stripped. Much to my relief. Hidden costs start to
happen if you do not go about modifications with good planning and
analysis. Stuff like glass is an issue as it may mean special runs
must be done to get the rare front screen made or others too. I want
to have at least one new one and a spare front screen with my
original used one. Anyone have a 406 front screen in superb
condition (or new) contact me.

Clyde.

[Hydroglen]

Clyde,
Looks like you are doing a capital job on this project. Congratulations! If
I may ad from personal experience, you might want to consider getting a
spare Volvo engine. I did something like what you are doing some 30 years
ago using a strong reliable engine. It was a 250 SE Mercedes engine. As time
went by the engine I was using actually became rare and expensive in some
parts. Sort of backfired on me. I mention this as you + Son plan to keep
this car 30 or 40 years.
Cheers
Dorien

[Kevin H]

As this thread has wandered off topic and become a general discussion about restoration, I have started another thread (click here) and moved the posts which were not related to the original discussion.