411 brake problems
 

I am having trouble with my brakes. I have reconditioned the calipers and checked or replaced the flexible lines. Every so often the brakes lock on and wont release . The only way I can get the car to move is to release the pressure in the lines by loosening the brake lines at the master cylinder. I suspect this will be a Master Cylinder problem.

Question 1 has any one experienced the same thing.

Question 2 Does any one know the availability of a replacement cylinder ( I believe Mk 1 & Mk 2 are different to later cars)

I also need inner and outer tie rod ends

Regards Peter Dowdle

Hi Peter,
I am not at all familiar with a 411 master cylinder or any variations of it, however I have experienced the problem you described on two separate instances. ( not in a Bristol)

The first situation required overhauling the master cylinder, I suspected that the bleed valve in the cylinder was not operating correctly. It worked fine afterwards.

The second situation was the activating rod between the pedal and the master cylinder piston had a /lengthening/shortening adjustment by way of a threaded section into a coupling connecting to the pedal. This provided an amount of free play between the piston and the pedal ( much like the need for valve/tappet clearance) - but in this case not much, maybe 1/4 inch, just enough for the piston to return freely into its neutral position and not be restricted thus allowing the brake fluid to return without a resisting pressure, which if pressure was there would build up and eventually lock the brakes, as if you had your foot on the pedal.

The second situation was also very quickly fixed by way of loosening the bolts holding the master cylinder to the firewall because the adjusting coupling was very difficult to get to, at night in the middle of no-where.

Hope the above is of some help even though it was not in a Bristol but in a Chrysler/Mitsubishi.

Cheers
Pete
Ps. What type of accommodation do you want at Mildura :-)

Peter,
Rare for servo's to fail, but having said that I recently had to replace one on a Skoda (VAG group). The symptoms were that the front brakes would stick on after repeated applications of the brake pedal and would only release after leaving it for some time or, like you, letting the pressure out from the hydraulic line.
Has the 411 got two servo's like my 412, or just a single?
One problem which can occur is that the vacuum chamber can fill with water or petrol over time (condensation). You can sometimes correct this by draining the chamber (means taking it off), but if it has got petrol in it this may have rotted the seals.
Repair kits for some servo's are available, see for example NORTHWEST AUTOMOTIVE HYDRAULIC COMPONENTS

This site has copies of catalogues which you can download.


Good luck

John P

thanks
 

Thanks guys I forgot to mention I have 2 new boosters and I have checked freeplay on the rod.

most likely to be the bleedback on the master cylinder

Series 1 & 2 have a single cylinder but dual system .Bristol years ago used to carry stock of repair kits but are nearly 50 years old and don't last. Series 3 4 & 5 have a different cylinder as best I can gather and im sure could be adapted. Does any one know what other cars either of the cylinders are common too.

Any clue on tie rod ends

The series 3 uses the same master cylinder as the Range Rover of that period and I think the same unit was used on the series 4 and 5, 412 and 603.
Geoff.

thanks for that Geoff

The tie rod ends are relatively easily sourced once you know that they were also used on the Austin Healy 3000. But you'll need to work out whether you need LH or RH threads

Re my earlier post. Now I'm confused, I know what I told you re Healy track rod ends is correct for a 410, but I now note that Amsteer - see. You are being redirected...
list a separate rod end for the 411, for quite a lot more money.

They probably know best

Brakes coming on
 

Check any breather on the master cylinder. On the 409, the brake fluid level cap was replaced by plain pug- no breather. When brakes got warm, fluid expanded and calipers came on. just a thought

Ball joints
 

Amsteer will make you track rod ends to pattern. They made me a couple for my 412 some years ago. Very helpful Company (then).
John P

Peter, where did you get the boosters from and what type are they? Mine need replacing or rebuilding.

boosters
 

Kevin i sent my originals to HYDROBOOST. He checked them out and said they would be expensive to repair, parts hard to get. He supplied 2 VH 40 AL boosters and filter covers. He comes with my high recommendation. Hes based at Echuca and specializes in power boosters for old cars 0354800886.

Thanks Peter. Last time I spoke to the guy at Hydroboost he was too busy and referred me to a mob in SA. That was perhaps a year ago and I never got around to doing anything about it. However the approx price he quoted seemed quite high so I was thinking simply replacing them with a modern unit might be a better option. But if I'm going to buy new ones I would rather source them locally in Melbourne.

What do you think of the ones you bought? Did you have to change the fittings on your brake pipes?

tie rods
 

Finally sorted out most of my steering and tie rod end problems. My two left hand tie rod ends were worn and from the forum i discovered the company AM STEER.
They list left and right hand ends. I subsequently ordered a left and right hand threaded ends without first checking ( assumed I needed one of each). It turns out that on both ends of the outer rods the threads are left handed. Quite why this would be I cant guess. The question begs why would AM STEER make a right hand threaded end for a 411 when there are none on the car. The middle rod has a left and right handed ends but these are larger than the outer ends .Mine dont need replacing at this stage but does anyone have any idea what they maybe off?

The lead that Austin Healy 3000 rods fit the outer arms is infact correct . These are the ones from the center rod on the Healy but in Australia they come in pairs left and right only.

To adjust the toe in on the 411 you change the length of the center rod . What then is the purpose of the adjustable outer rods ?

I also discovered that the steering idler also acts as a steering damper. I filled it with oil and it now acts like a steering shocker.

Some confusion here, I think.

"Both ends of the outer rod are left handed". So when you slacken the lock nuts and rotate the outer tie bar whilst the rod ends are mounted on the car one end screws in at the same rate as the other end screws out, so no adjustment occurs.

You ask why Amsteer should make a right hand threaded outer rod end (for a 411 when there are none on the car). They do but not for a 411. The 407, 408, 409 and 410 all use 5 right hand threaded ends and 1 left hand. The Austin Healy also needs a RH threaded end, which is probably why they are sold in pairs in Australia. I don't know why Bristols changed from predominately RH to LH.

The rod ends on the middle rod on the 407 to 410 cars are the same size as the outers. One wonders why Bristols changed to bigger ends on the middle rod on the 411 but your confirmation that they did explains why the Amsteer website lists a larger and more expensive rod end for Bristol on their website. It also explains my confusion earlier in this correspondence. I don't know what car or light truck shared these but you can get them from Amsteer.

Other readers may like to note that the outer rod ends (and the inners on the 407 to 410) are as used on the Healy 3000, not the earlier Healy

Tie Rods 411
 

PEU186F ( WHOEVER YOU MAY BE)

Yes you are right one end turns in the other out meaning no adjustment. Why then is there any need for left handed threads , why not have fixed lenght rods like the austin healy?

The AMSTEER only lists two ends for 411s no mention of other models .I have 2 amsteer ends and 2 austin healy ends and they are almost identical. They do not list the larger ends for the middle rod. My guess is the Austin ends are ex Moss Motors.

Brake problems 411 mk 2
 

Still trying to sort out locking brakes . I need a lead on what other vehicle might have had the same master cylinder as shown in photo. It seems to be only used on series 2 411s. I need a repair kit as the cylinder itself is in very good condition.

Regards Peter Dowdle

Hi Peter,
It's odd that the 411 S2 would have a different master cylinder to the other 411 series, although granted it is not impossible, because Bristol did try other brands of components from time to time

Do you know this for sure?

Is it possible someone has fitted a different one to your car at some stage?

411 master cylinder
 

Kevin I have researched this closely.If you check photos of various cars you will find series 3 4 & 5 all have a plastic tank , These are common to 70s80s range rover and are held in place with 2 studs on the firewall. What has surprised me is that series 1 have the same mounting system although a completely different cylinder. As you can see from the photo mine doesn't mount that way rather it has 2 cross bolts which attach to two parallel fabricated little walls .These are clearly original on my car. A search of the internet found a site CLASSIC PARTS on ebay. They list my cylinder as suitable for 411 1969 to from memory 1977.Listed at 365 pounds.

My brother Geoff had a series 1 which has chambers of different sizes. He purchased a kit from Bristol Cars but being very old stock it failed. With some modification he eventually fitted an xj6 mk 1 cylinder.

Clearly then there are at least 3 variations that i know of.

Im hoping to find a brake specialist in Melbourne who carries a large range of separate rubbers. Any clues ?

I don't know anyone Peter, but I know people who will know. I will ask around.

411 brake update
 

Have now discovered master cylinder is ex Commer 3 tonne step through van. Girling KC6055 64068550 and that the kit is SP2375, To date though I cannot source any supplier for the kit. Any Leads ?

Peter,
The Master Cylinder is a Lockheed 64068550 with 1 inch bore
Kit is a Lockheed SP2375
Also fitted on Commer Walk Tru 3 ton Van KC6055 1967 -69

Geoff

Peter,
Try these people NORTHWEST CLASSIC SPARES

kevin

I must apologise, I find I put out a piece of misinformation regarding track rod ends earlier in this correspondence. I said that the 407s to 410s used 5 RH and one LH track rod ends. This is incorrect, the parts list lists 5 LH and one RH, the latter on the centre rod.

The Amsteer part numbers are AM13LH and AM13RH respectively.

But just to confuse matters, at one point, before I discovered Amsteer, BCS were unable to supply me with a LH track rod end and insisted that the entire near side track rod be replaced. I surmise, but cannot readily check, that this used RH ends, so there MAY be other cars out there where the 5 to 1 ratio no longer applies.

Amsteers AM182LH and AM182RH, which they list for the 411, are presumably specific to the centre rod on the 411 and possibly the later cars.

Roger Morrall

track rod ends
 

Rodger I can see no possible use for the right hand thread unit as the centre rod ends are of a larger diameter taper . Amsteer dont have a listing on the center rods . Thankfully mine are in good nick.

Brake Master Cylinder
 

Can Any One Tell Me How To Remove The Brake Master Cylinder On My 411. Seemed Easy I Unbolted The Cylinder And Disconnected The Fluid Lines, So Far So Good.

The Next Step Was To Remove The Pin That Holds The Yoke To The Pedal Assembly. With Difficulty I Removed The Split Pin And Pushed The Pin Out Of The Yoke As Far As It Would Go. Big Problem There Isnt Enough Room To Remove The Pin, Thus I Cannot Remove The Yoke.

Any Ideas On Where To Go From Here ?

Final Brake Saga
 

I finally managed from sources in the UK and Australia to obtain a master cylinder repair kit for my series 2 411 Bristol. I employed a professional experience mechanic to fit the kit , ensuring it went back together correctly.
After much fiddling I had everything back in place. The pedal came good after some bleeding. Job completed after a short test drive.
Next day I drove the 35 Km to have the wheel alignment done. Upon opening the bonnet I found the front brake tank overflowing and the rear one nearly empty. ENOUGH
From the advice given on this forum I purchase a mid 70s Range Rover new cylinder.
Fitting was fairly easy. Parts required
1/ A plate with 2 studs fitted to back of firewall
2/ lengthened push rod ( extra 15mm )
3/ Two new brake lines to extend to boosters.
All fitted together easily

BRAKES ARE FINE

411 S1 brake problems - revived thread
 

I have read through the postings on the 411 Master Cylinder, but I would appreciate some clarification and assistance.

Initial symptoms: 411-S1 has stiff rear brakes.

1. Problem One: The flex hose to the rear axle was completely blocked. Replaced it with H892 found at Sterling Brakes in Auckland (last one). Now fluid flows to rear, but brakes still stiff.
2. Problem Two (maybe) I removed the rear calipers (Girling 12/3HP). They seemed in relatively good shape (they were rebuilt in 2004, but not driven since), but needed a bit of surface cleaning on the top of the pistons due to sitting. Two trips to the brake shop and $200 later, I put them back on car, jacked up both rear wheels, removed wheels, started the engine, the wheels would no turn when in Drive at idle. Applying some power would turn, but clearly the pads were gripping.
3. With the engine still running and still in gear, I loosened bleed valve on the caliper, fluid came out, immediately the brakes released.

This points to something upstream keeping pressure on. Options include:

• Master Cylinder needs to be removed, inspected, probably rebuilt
• Hose on the Master Cylinder is partially blocked (works on braking, not on release)
• Servo needs attention of some sort
• There is a pressure relief valve that I don't know about (is there one?)

1. If it is the Master Cylinder, it is unclear how one removes it. One comment about an impossible to remove split pin. Is this something I may encounter? I would appreciate a step-by-step removal instructions that I can then summarise for others (the problem with forums is having to read through all of the dialogue to find the core information necessary to solve the problem).
   .
   A. If it is removed, what is it? How can I find out how to rebuild it. What is the manufacturer (Girling/Lockheed?), what generic part number, what other vehicles use the same master cylinder.
   B. Alternatively, what more readily available equivalent is available? I read about Land Rover, sounds like a more difficult procedure, and I read one comment about using a modern master cylinder. What would be the best alternative retrofit?
   .
2. With the hose, it looks easy - get another one. I'll do that when the shops open.
   .
3. With the servo, if I disconnect the vacuum and the servo is the problem, does it release the brakes, or do I need to make a bypass line and unbolt the in/out brake line nuts to eliminate the servo as a suspect?
   .
4. And finally, am I missing anything else?

My hunch is that the rubber hose at the Master Cylinder is partially blocked... it will work when foot pressure is applied, but closes down when back pressure wants to release the pads.

Finally, BODA asked if they could use my postings of the "shadetree mechanic" steps taken, so I have been documenting the findings for future owners in a way that eliminates the back-and-forth, but provides the helpful directions for those of us too far from a qualified repair shop. Clarity in answers will be appreciated by future Bristol custodians (Bristols can last forever, it's the current owners who come and go).

Must be different to the 411 S5 - there's no rubber hose connecting to the master cylinder on my car...

According to the 411 Owners Manual the master cylinder should be a Girling product.

It does sound very similar to the issue Peter Dowdle had.

EDIT/PS: Claude, please post a photo of the master cylinder

Claude

Too many issues one after the other can seem daunting but the best approach is to follow a logical elimination path.

Releasing the pressure after the servo allows the brakes to come off, so it's either the servo or the master cylinder that is holding them on, now that you've eliminated the brake line between the servo and the callipers.

So release any pressure between the master cylinder and the servo, simply by loosening a connection point.

If the brakes don't then come off it is the servo that's the problem, if they do then it's the master cylinder, or possibly the brake line between the master cylinder and the servo. To eliminate the latter try loosening a connection point at each end of that brake line

If it's the servo it's a case of rebuild or replace, I'd be pretty certain that there must be someone in NZ who rebuilds them, if of course you can find them.

If it's the master cylinder do just check that the brake pedal is free to return fully before you attack it.

My knowledge of V8 brakes stops at the 410 which uses twin Girling master cylinders, callipers and connectors but Lockheed servos (Lockheed 4258-405). I believe that the 411 is similar apart from the single master cylinder.

Roger

411 sticking back brakes
 

As i mentioned in my earlier post I had similar problems > To clarify the problem can you post a photo of the master cylinder. Series one and two cars have varying master cylinders than 3 4 & 5. My series 2 had an unusual type off a commer 3 ton step thru van. Parts and replacements are very hard to source. It also has an unusual mounting system , for these reasons the range rover cylinder is the way to go. If you decide to go down that track I can guide you through the conversion. Yes the original cylinder if the same as mine is very hard to remove and replace.

A photo if you can please

Photo of master cylinder and servosAttachment 1133

411 sticking back brakes
 

Thats the same as mine. As I said if you need any advice on removal and replacement Im only to happy to help .

That's very different to mine (411 S5).

411 sticking back brakes
 

Kevin your series 5 cylinder is the same as the range rover one i have fitted except the plastic tank is slightly different in that it has a fluid lever sensor fitted to the lid.

Peter do you have the part number for the Range Rover master cylinder that you used? I want to see if it is the same number as the MC Girling list for the Bristol 411.

I'm intrigued as to how/why Bristol used a different MC on the 411 S1&S2. I have the Girling Parts lists for the Bristol 410 and 411 and the photo of yours doesn't appear to be the same as the MC listed for either vehicle.

Nor can I find a MC in the Girling catalogue illustrations that looks like the one on your's and Claude's cars.

However, the part number on Bristol's parts list for the 410 is also slightly different to the part number listed by Girling for the 410!

The joys of low volume, hand built cars! :)

411 sticking back brakes
 

Kevin I purchased my range rover cylinder from Ritter Landrover in Burwood. The part no on the invoice was LR RTC3657. These are all over the internet for mid late 70s and early 80s Range Rovers. All series 1 and 2 411s seem to have the same cylinder ( although Brother Geoffs had something different from what he tells me). They all had the twin tanks separate from the unit itself. They are an old fashion looking unit with an unusual mounting system. I suspect their supply dried up and were forced to change to the more modern cylinder which seems common on all series 3 to 5 cars.

My conversion has been a great success.

411 sticking back brakes
 

NB. The 410s had a completely different system

Yes I realised this when I looked at the parts diagrams for the 410. According to Girling the one attached is the one they supply to Bristol for the 410 (two per vehicle).

Peter the Range Rover one you used won't fit the 411 S5 because the mounting flange is 90 degrees out.

Claude,
If you haven't yet removed the master cylinder, the attached section from the 411 user's manual may help. The second page is probably redundant if you are replacing it with a different part.

Interestingly the instruction clearly refer to the type of master cylinder fitted to the 411 S1 and S2. There is no mention of the type fitted to the later 411s.