New 403 owner

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Hal

However, if Bristol gave up making their own engines, and bought in engines from Chrysler, does that mean that the engine and gearbox are not fundamental to the spirit or soul of a Bristol.
Hal

Rules about classic cars do not apply to Bristol. There are not enough of them to create a "typical" resale market, and a great deal of their fate depends on one man... previously Tony and now Toby. Tony caused the marque to fall into oblivion, keeping it going but putting it so far off the radar screen as to weaken the used market to the point where many restorables were scrapped or lie in open fields. Toby has revitalized it, so there is new interest, and I see prices higher.

The soul of a Bristol is not purest. It is an engineers car (until the recent Fighter which is sex on wheels) and a historian's car in the same vein as the Morgan, only more elegant. So when Chrysler offered their automatic transmission, and popped a motor on it to demonstrate its use, Bristol shifted to what they saw as an excellent motor. Once in, they have stayed with it because changing is complicated, and their engine has remained stable even as the company changed ownership and almost went out of business a few times.

Bristol itself does not venerate its cars. It is happy to take a 410 in and offer to refit it with the latest engine, brakes, electric devices and modern sunroof. But because it does this as the factory, it creates an official sanction that goes down in history as proper. It makes it part of the"soul" of the car.

Sometimes it takes a newcomer, and Hal, you may be the man. Not sure where you live, but I would suggest you take a flight or drive over to the showroom and have a serious chat with Toby. I would estimate there are at least a hundred engineless 400-6 cars out there that could reasonably be restored if an engine/transmission combo could affordably be secured from a donor car. The business case for Bristol is the Morgan business case. As Tony Crook said, Morgan is in the parts business. They build their cars to create market demand for parts. Put a hundred Bristols back on the road with engines and the demand for restoration parts will skyrocket.

I think it is worthwhile asking Toby to look at electric. Doing a review of the internet shows companies are now coming out with reasonable sized cars targeting 100 to 250 miles driving range. Batteries will improve. We may also see fuel cell charging systems that use gasoline better (because they run at a single rpm). From a restoration perspective, electric is easy because it fits in the engine bay and allows weight to be strategically distributed for best handling. If he can do the conversion at the current market price, they would charge about 10,000 UKP... and as all would be the same, that price could come down after the first few. Not unprecedented. When gas became a problem, Bristol sold LPG cars. And, on my last visit to the repair shop, they did have an electric micro car parked in a corner.

But if not electric, ask Toby to pick a common engine that was put in cars whose bodies broke while the engine soldiered on. It is too bad, of course that the Chrysler small-block 8 does not easily fit, but I wonder what would be involved in a factory refit kit. It may require a tin kit for the engine bay, and probably would require a stronger differential. After all they did it with the Bullet, which looks like it was a Bristol-6 chassis they modified as an engine test bed.

What do you say, Hal? Pop on over and have a chat.

Claude

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Claude

Rules about classic cars do not apply to Bristol.
Claude

Claude,

As a newbie, I found your observations illuminating, especially about Bristol cars not “venerating” their cars, and that the soul of a Bristol is that of an engineer.

These comments seem to make sense to me. Especially, since as you point out that they will happily modernise one of their earlier models to full modern spec. And I accept that a retrofit done by the factory, would be perceived as proper.

But if we start looking at electric, LPG etc, whether factory approved or not, surely it begs the question again of what is it that makes a Bristol. Is it the power plant? the chassis, the design or some other mechanical or design aesthetic that if we see it, we can recognise and identify as uniquely Bristol.

As a new owner, in my “ignorance” I would say that its understated cars, with good British engineering values, and cars for grown ups that are practical, and that on the whole form follows function.

But if “Britishness” is a core value, then how can they use the Chrysler bits without sacrificing this value ?

These are more questions than statements, as the answers I believe will help clarify / pin down what is lets say acceptable and what isn’t.

If it’s just engineering, then surely any and all superior engineering could be added ?

I suspect that my lack of knowledge of Bristol cars and oily bits in general would preclude me from being the one that could talk to Bristol cars. I’d probably make some daft suggestion that would get me shot or make me persona non grata, lol.

Hal

[Claude]

Originally Posted by Hal

Claude,

As a newbie, I found your observations illuminating, especially about Bristol cars not “venerating” their cars, and that the soul of a Bristol is that of an engineer.

These comments seem to make sense to me. Especially, since as you point out that they will happily modernise one of their earlier models to full modern spec. And I accept that a retrofit done by the factory, would be perceived as proper.

But if we start looking at electric, LPG etc, whether factory approved or not, surely it begs the question again of what is it that makes a Bristol. Is it the power plant? the chassis, the design or some other mechanical or design aesthetic that if we see it, we can recognise and identify as uniquely Bristol.

As a new owner, in my “ignorance” I would say that its understated cars, with good British engineering values, and cars for grown ups that are practical, and that on the whole form follows function.

But if “Britishness” is a core value, then how can they use the Chrysler bits without sacrificing this value ?

These are more questions than statements, as the answers I believe will help clarify / pin down what is lets say acceptable and what isn’t.

If it’s just engineering, then surely any and all superior engineering could be added ?

I suspect that my lack of knowledge of Bristol cars and oily bits in general would preclude me from being the one that could talk to Bristol cars. I’d probably make some daft suggestion that would get me shot or make me persona non grata, lol.

Hal

I would say the core value of a Bristol is not Britishness, but singularity, which perhaps may be a British quality. At first it was a way to keep talented aeroplane guys in work. It then became the life purpose for Tony Crook who was perhaps one of the most singular men in the industry, in the mould of Henry Ford in some ways (but not in others). Now Toby Silverton has taken it on, preserving the singularity while injecting new life into the beast.

The number one distinguishing quality of the car is not where the parts come from (remember, it started as German war booty) but survival.

Next it is the boy passion... the absurd idea that you can build your own car, not have it be seen as a kit car or Las Vegas car (like the Excaliber, for example), and keep churning them out decade after decade.

Purity is not there. It would be heresy to put a chevy big block into a Rolls Royce because the factory would not consider such a thing. Tradition would be offended. Chopping the top off a Bristol is called a Special, not a travesty.

The curious thing is because the fraternity (co-ed) of Bristol aficionados is so small, it really can define and redefine what is acceptable. A single individual can make a huge difference - look at S.L. Jones, Andrew Blow or Brian May, for example. If you, Hal, decided to not only convert your car to pure electric, but you did the engineering so it could become a kit, and then you put together a service that started converting every engineless Bristol, you would define the car and change the "reality".

If a Bristol has soul, number one it is the experience first of walking up to it... it's visual, what it looks like (especially the 401-3 models which look like snow sculpted in a blizzard). Next, it is inside the cockpit as the driver. Again, it begins as a visual experience that becomes more pronounced as more cars are plastic moulded. It also is olfactory, the smells of real leather and wool. Then it is the driving experience, which is more about handling than sounds. The old Bristol 6 had a distinct sound, but the V8 sounds depend entirely on what silencers (mufflers) it has. Handling is a big part of the Bristol, as is the ride which varies widely depending on how old the rubber bits are in the car.

Unless a Bristol is seriously butchered, that soul remains despite mechanical variations made. As a historian, I prefer to see variations that are bolt on, or that chop simple sheet metal, such as the bolt on transmission housing, because one day the cars may be worth returning to factory original. There are places like Bruce Pigeon's shop in Christchurch that make factory quality parts, and one of the nice things about Bristols is that most unique parts are relatively simple, since complexity requires too high volume.

So, don't worry about killing the soul of your car by what powerplant you implant, or even chopping the top off, provided you do it very well. I owned a 405 Drophead that required a complete restoration (No. 4510... brilliantly finished by the factory for the fellow who bought it from me). When we looked at the work done by Abbot in making it a drophead, the restoration guy said the Bristol welder belonged in the welder's hall of fame, but the Abbot guys must have been blacksmiths for the crude way they chopped off the top. In his view, the 405s were built as standard and then converted afterwards. Not sure if this is true, but if so, it certainly gives a green light to aftermarket jobs.

Cheers
Claude

[GREG]

Claude,

Hal lives quite near me so if he wants to go electric I will help him. I will even work on a kit so others can follow.

All we need is investors -- any offers ? Or is reality the real option i.e making a 402 special with a diseasel or petrol engine strong enough to do it justice.

As extra space would be created making a 402 by loosing the rear seats perhaps room for LPG ?

Sorry about being so negative about electric but the technology , cost , money , and even range when complete seem monumental hurdles. Nevertheless , any investors ??

Greg

[bkz411]

Speaking as very new owner of a full nut and bolt restored Bristol 411 (v6), I probably do not have the experience to comment on what makes a Bristol a Bristol. However, I would like to contribute to this discussion to state what an excellent job Bristol did on this car, and for me - asking them to rebuild a 411 from scratch was an inspired plan. My brother has now asked Bristol to do the same to a Bristol 603 and I am eagerly awaiting a drive in that!

[GREG]

Any chance of some BKZ411 pictures -- I am thinking of doing similar !

[bkz411]

No problem - my car was reviewed in Octane, see
http://www.classicandperformancecar....uy_it_new.html

[GREG]

Originally Posted by bkz411

No problem - my car was reviewed in Octane, see
Bristol 411 - buy it new

You lucky lucky lucky so and so -- very very nice... let me know if you ever want to sell it .. cheap

[Hal]

Originally Posted by bkz411

No problem - my car was reviewed in Octane, see
Bristol 411 - buy it new

Wonderful car. I'm quite envious.

Before this modern 411, what car did you drive. What i mean is how does the driving experience compare to lets say a higher end BMW or Mercedes ?

[Des]

Electric wise, lead acid is a dead duck, Toyota make a grotesque hybrid thing which I notice tend to be driven appallingly, and there's an issue with Toyota brakes, perhaps smashed examples are piling up in scrap yards waiting for their modern technology batteries to be harvested, shame if they go to waste as their manufacture will have caused vast pollution.
Obviously how the car will be used needs consideration before going 'leccy, for delivering bottles of milk in the early hours it's ideal. How about towing a trailer mounted diesel generator for electric power, run on the agricultural red stuff, this could even be legal in a loophole kind of way, charge exempt congestion zone cruising!
I wouldn't be keen myself for a rover V8, It's what powers my regular car and I find them a rough old lump of monkey metal, but still likeable if that makes sense, more suited to a tractor than a lightweight car, and that famed 'V8 rumble' is not a good thing. There are far nicer engines out there, Big Lexus Merc copy has an ohc 4l V8, come to think of it, might be worth looking at what powers Mercs.
BMW engines, from what I've seen, do tend to be sprawled across their bays, but would be the one to go for if at all feasible, though I do think unlikely.
As for diesel, I heard or read some years ago that a diesel powered car is like being gay, more acceptable than it used to be, but still wrong.

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Des

Obviously how the car will be used needs consideration before going 'leccy, for delivering bottles of milk in the early hours it's ideal.

Now that's an idea, starting a milk round !

Originally Posted by Des

I wouldn't be keen myself for a rover V8, It's what powers my regular car and I find them a rough old lump of monkey metal,

Agreed, the ones i've heard did sound a tad agricultural (diesels i mean, dont know about petrol versions)

Originally Posted by Kevin Howard

But apart from that, the economic viability, poor range and lack of re-fuelling facilities in the UK, it just wouldn't be proper!

I'm sure that people said the same about LPG when Bristol introduced it as an option.

[Rubbond]

Gourgeous - but those switches and air ducts!

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Claude

Yes, Kevin. A sound engineering analysis of why such an assertion would be appreciated.

It's not about engineering Claude. I'm sure it's possible, but a big part of the reason is in your next post "The old Bristol 6 had a distinct sound".

But apart from that, the economic viability, poor range and lack of re-fuelling facilities in the UK, it just wouldn't be proper!

Originally Posted by bkz411

Speaking as very new owner of a full nut and bolt restored Bristol 411 (v6)

v6 ?
is that a typo?

[kfitzgerald]

The theory that the change from Bristol engines to Chrysler engines
undermines the engineering does not take into account the engineering
skills of Chrysler. Having owned a number of cars, including Chryslers,
I can say that not all American V-8s are the same. The emissions
standards of the 70's killed Ford and GM's v8s. Chryslers were not in
the same problem of losing all power.
As far as putting something into a 403, there was an Arnolt Bristol that
had a Triumph 6 and gear box installed without cutting up the frame. I
believe it was a TR6 engine and box. Kevin

[bkz411]

The (v6) was a typo - should have been "series 6", the first/only one ever
made.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by bkz411

The (v6) was a typo - should have been "series 6", the first/only one ever
made.

It may be the only one referred to as the S6, but it's not the first full rebuild and modernisation/upgrade Bristol have done. Back in he late 1990's they did this one which was also converted to LHD in the process.

[Hal]

Originally Posted by Claude

I would say the core value of a Bristol is not Britishness, but singularity

That was a detailed response.

I’m afraid that i can’t really comment upon the singularity of various individuals, since i really don’t know what they did etc that made them so singular.

I found your comments about the fraternity of Bristol owners to be very illuminating. Especially your observation (hypothesis maybe ?) that there is more freedom in Bristol ownership about making changes / tailoring the car to one’s own needs, and those choices then being embraced or at least not shunned.

My own personal preference is to see if a BMW engine & box can be fitted into the car, because of BMW having a strong DNA link to the Bristol 403.

Cheers
Hal

[GREG]

Hal,

A 405 in Sweden is also having / had a BMW engine replacement and much more. Very interesting project and will probably be a superb car if the rest of his work is anything to go by.

Dan S-born Refining

Maybe he can give you some tips.

Greg

[Bellerophon]

There has been a lot said about Bristol's and how they fit into the modern
world, but the position was a much clearer years ago and its status was
understood by people who knew about cars.
I bought my 401 some 48 years ago when it was 10 years old, just after it
had been to the works and had some updating done. The reason I bought it was
that there was nothing else which came near it for quality or performance,
I was looking for the best and the Bristol was. This was a simple decision
albeit an expensive one at the time as the new cost was almost 3.500 GBP
in 1952 and I paid a third of this in 1962 which for someone who had just
finished as a De Havilland Apprentice was a lot of money and one could buy a
house for that.
I have never regretted buying the car, in fact it has turned out to be one
of the best things that I have done, in as much as it has given me endless
pleasure made me friends from all over the world, has been welcomed into
many countries, but above all it is established as one of the family. I hope
that I will still be able to drive it for many years, as I joined the new
Bristol Owners Club in 1964 when it was part of the BMW Club, I was the
youngest member, alas I am the only original member left now, but it is good to
see the club so well established.
My regards,
Bellerophon

[GREG]

I think Bellerophon probably has a unique perspective on Bristol cars and even owned my 408 back in the 60's but chose to keep the 401 -- hmmm !

Having seen and been in the Bellerophon 401, it is remarkable that a car more than a half century old can still go down the road as good as some modern cars. Bristol took a superb bit of engineering and design from BMW and made it better and made it their own.

Given the same circumstances today, I wonder what 10 year old car someone like a young Bellerophon would buy ? Would it be a Bristol ? In my mind it is a much harder choice as I don't believe that any model stands out as much as the Bristols in that era and I can't imagine anything being so usable in 60 years time.

So, what would a young Bellerophon buy today ?

Greg