Restore 403 or sacrifice for parts?

[alistair]

Re the Ebay discussion Aerodyne values have undoubtedly been increasing in UK in the last couple of years. Or the values of running cars have certainly increased. So we have a situation where a top 403 with upgrades (needs to have a 100 series engine, remote control, disc brakes and overdrive - few have) is worth GBP30,000. But we also have seen the value of 100 series engines increase. A 100 series engine and gearbox will cost GBP8-10,000 if you can find one and may cost the same amount again to rebuild. So its all about engine values. Sadly there is no way it makes economic sense to try and restore an engineless car unless the shell, paint and interior are exceptional.

There are lots of engineless 403s, 405s and 406s around (and AC Greyhounds) where the engine has been removed to be fitted to a more valuable AC - often to convert AC Aces and Acecas built with AC engines to Bristol power.

A really well sorted Bristol engine is just a wonderful thing - more people are realising this at the time when the number of sound engines is decreasing. Lets hope with the new regime at the factory they might be able to help in the future!

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by alistair

There are lots of engineless 403s, 405s and 406s around (and AC Greyhounds) where the engine has been removed to be fitted to a more valuable AC - often to convert AC Aces and Acecas built with AC engines to Bristol power.

A really well sorted Bristol engine is just a wonderful thing - more people are realising this at the time when the number of sound engines is decreasing. Lets hope with the new regime at the factory they might be able to help in the future!

I didn't realise they were even robbing them out of AC Greyhounds. A similar things has happened with other marques. Aston DBSs are having their 6 cylinder engines ripped out for DB4, 5 & 6. Also Ferrari 250 GTE's were being sacrificed for their chassis, engine and transmission to build replica 250 GTOs. Although in both cases it was probably only cars in need of total restoration that were being sacrificed.

As for the factory building new 6 cylinder engines, another option could be for them too cooperate with a third party who would be prepared to do it. Such as someone who was already set up to make blocks and heads, although of course you would still need all the other components.

There's a UK company who make (or at least used to make) new 'improved' blocks and heads for the DB2 and DB MkIII. With the combined number of Bristols, ACs, Arnolts and Frazer Nashes in existence there must be greater demand than for the Astons.

It's good to hear the Aerodynes are increasing in value, but I wonder if more can be done to raise the profile of the marque (they probably need to be raced!).

[Ashley James]

Interestingly 400s have gone up quite steeply, two have recently
sold for around £25K. These were sound original cars needing some
work and a rather better one made almost £40K. The Bristol problem
is a plethora of scruffy cars, people in the main, won't buy work
and neither can they imagine what a finished properly restored car
might look like. Once there are some really immaculate examples in
eye catching (but original) colours at events like the Goodwood
Revival, I think prices will rise more.
Anything else eligible for so many important historical events fetches
far more than Bristols, which is sad.

Ash

[406Special]

At the BOC GM this year a chap from a local company (I forget which
one - but I did speak to him after) said that the factory (BCL) were
co-operating by way of supplying original drawings for the 6 cylinder
block and head. It was his company's intention to cast new improved
blocks, then if demand required it, new heads as well. Apparently
internals are available new, but blocks and heads are not and that is
why many cars are sacrificed to the greater good of those
remaining. As to cost, 18 months ago my 406's engine and gearbox
fetched I believe just over £6k and that's a 2.2 with a 4 speed
+o'drive 110 unit, the one most favoured as an upgrade to prior
models and other Bristol engine sports. It allegedly had been
rebuilt but was sold requiring a strip down and rebuild with careful
checking of fit etc of parts. The chap above at the BOC GM said he
expected new blocks to retail for around £5k. Assuming heads are
close on £2k, then £10k for a new Bristol engine (improved so he
says) sounds about right. If this be the case then it will surely
bring down the cost of the purchase of older/worn engines for
restoration. I just can't remember the company's name - perhaps
someone can shed light although I am also sure they regularly
advertise in the Bulletin.

I think that a 403/405/406 without a Bristol engine doesn't mean the
car is worthless - although I do believe they are a bargain. Anyone
contemplating a restoration should not think cheap and quick, but be
prepared to do an inside out rebuild to ensure longevity and improved
construction - hence an engineless car is often a better staring
point as it means the initial cost is tiny compared to the
restoration. Indeed, as long as what is installed has a similar
dimension and weight distribution, then the finished car should ride/
handle and look/feel like new. As an engine/gearbox rebuild of a 2
litre is somewhere between £6-12k, plus the cost of the base unit/
car, one has to be into originality of the power train to want to
invest that sought of money. The whole Bristol driving experience,
IMHO can be improved in a number of areas: Brakes (Coopercraft front
callipers + dual circuit), shocks, wheels & tyres, as well as
improved engine and better gear ratios. Although this is not
justification for my actions, I am seeking to get a more performant
car with traditional simplicity and quality engineering in a classic
Bristol. My car will pretty much look and behave like a standard
car, but go faster, stop better and hopefully handle/ride better
whilst having more comfort and convenience. It even has a
collapsible steering column for added safety! As Bristols have
always been customised to suit the owner (to a point) and that many
have been modified in some way for better performance etc., I see not
issue with replacing the original highly over-square long stroke
small six with something more modern and less costly that has better
performance and lower ongoing costs.

Clyde

[Ashley James]

TT Workshops are having both heads and blocks cast at about £7.5K ea
and I think they are having made or are making lots of parts for
late BMW and early Bristols.
Alpine Eagle are great friends, I had the onerous task of writing the
funeral address for poor Roy Partridge, he was a remarkable man with a
knowledge of coachwork that few could equal. I helped with their
website and Rich, my son worked there for 7 years before starting
he trimmed that remarkable Kadoori Ghost and supervised the rebuild
of a couple of PIII's before he left. Few R-R and B restorers have won
more awards internationally or over a longer period.

Brian May has been accumulating parts for years now so that he can
sell cannibalised cars with enough bits to complete them for anyone
brave enough to take them on. There are two 405 DHCs, several 401-3s,
several 400s and some 405s and 406s. He also has a few V8's that are
on the road. He has a wonderful original 403 that he's joined us in
France with for the last few years. He's very popular and he and Jean
usually sing to us as the end of the holiday approaches.

Rich has done bits of 328s and a fair bit of my car, but he'd love to
rebuild an early Bristol. It's been mostly Bentley R types this year
although he is going to trim the Maharajah of Johdpur's at AE.

I think the most likely Bristols to be worth the investment are the
400s and the 403's, the 404 already has it's following and is secure.

Interesting to hear your comments on modifications. I've fitted and
overdrive, a 100B2 Bottom end, a Delco Remy distributor, Alfin brake drums and a Lockeed
Servo.

Ashley

[seanmcs]

Well, I like this enthusiasm. I did a bit to a 401, and that went
North in NSW in Julian's hands and is still a good runner. My
beautiful 406 is now in Victoria and an excellent car. The 405 was
really only second to the Isos in New Zealand. A fantastic charger.
Now the 406 Zagato is close to metal finish in Dubbo. Bas and I were
with the Nugents last week and it looks like they will be finished
in October. The quality is outstanding. Bas has all the mechanicals
done and somewhat as usual, the 110 engine has only done 50,0000
miles and the pistons and gearbox are outstanding. The only thing is
I can't quite swallow the original orange-red paint. Something more
like Mudgee honey over a white plate in mind.

Sean

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted by Ashley James

TT Workshops are having both heads and blocks cast at about £7.5K ea

£15k for a bare block and head?

That's going to end up being an expensive exercise. Probably worth it if you are restoring an AC Ace, but not a fixed head AC. Still makes it worth buying a tatty old 6 cyl Bristol for it's engine and transmission, unfortunately.

[406Special]

Ashley, next time I get a gathering of Bristol owners to pop along
for tea and bikkies at AE with John and his team you should join us.
John never entioned he knew someone with a Bristol (you) - very small
world.

My 406 is in a lock up on the Little Clanfield site which is owned by
Ed Stephens (very nice man & enthusiast come Aga expert and water
mill collector).

I am waiting until we have the engine back ready for install before
we venture down later in year.

Clyde