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8 & 10 cyl Bristol cars Type 407 onwards - restoration, repair, maintenance etc

*Moved - Alternative (green) Engines

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 27-02-09, 12:27 PM
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Default *Moved - Alternative (green) Engines

If Bristol were to replace the Chrysler V8 with something else, then
I would like to see something more modern and efficient whilst
retaining decent service and support. Any idea of simplicity must be
set off against reliability and ease of service of modern electronic
components and systems. I suggest either a German V6/V8 diesel as
these are generally very sophisticated yet reliable and strong
performers for the GT type cruising that a Bristol might be used.
Alternatively, I like the PSA/Ford/Jaguar/Landrover 2.7/3.0 litre V6
diesel as well, especially the new 3.0 litre version in the XF. The
3.6 litre V8 diesel in the Range Rover is also a great motor.
Coupled with a good 6 speed auto and a reasonable 25-35mpg
possibility (realistic not over optimistic), the car would obtain
some green cred! Just a thought. Mind you the LPG version does
around 20mpg times the half cost of LPG making it a green alternative
as well with about the equivalent 40mpg cost relative to ULP. A 730d
I know owned by a client has been getting an overall average fuel
consumption of 35mpg in the past 18 months and it weighs at least
150kg more than a Blenheim. If one wanted to maintain a BMW link the
twin turbo 3.0 litre straight six (335/635/736d engine) with a six
speed auto or even a manual would be another fine choice.

Clyde.
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Old 27-02-09, 12:45 PM
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The 3.6 V8 diesel would be the best bet. Can't see Bristol owners having any less cylinders. Even in a great lump of a Range Rover, it can despatch 60 in 8.5 seconds. In a Bristol, more like 7secs or less, but probably giving up to 35mpg.
Either that or (if Chrysler was still owned by DB) the V8 engine used in the Mercedes GL/ML420CDi
Anyone know what acceleration a stock Blenheim has at the moment? Is it really 6.3 to 60mph?
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 27-02-09, 01:20 PM
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Default Alternative (green) Engines

I'm sorry, but a diesel? Even the modern ones are not nearly sophisticated
enough for a Bristol. Diesel is for lorries, generators and locomotives. And
indeed, anything less than 8 cylinders wont do.
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Old 27-02-09, 03:30 PM
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Default Alternative (green) Engines

Unfortunately nothing is sacred or as we would like it to be.

Rolls and Bentley are NOT British in the sense they used to be.
Alfa Romeo and Lancia are Fiat.
Jaguar has Ford connections.
Even Ford gets some of it's engines made in Japan.
The list goes on........so a Bristol with a diesel is quite possible.

It probably boils down to getting engines from a manufacturer who is
flexible enough to sell in very small quantities.
Diesels have come a long way, and even back in the fifties the Cummings
diesel race car did a capital job at the Indy 500.
And I have a nice Mercedes diesel that gets me around nicely.

I have dealt with Chrysler in the past and found them great to work with. I
was only buyng a few engines, yet I was able to meet with their engineers
and discuss my needs and theories. They were interested, gave me valuable
advice and great tech help.
I hope Chrysler stays in business and can continue to supply Bristol cars.

Dorien
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Old 27-02-09, 03:59 PM
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Who needs this anyway? Maybe I'm not getting the point.

Regards,
Markus
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Old 27-02-09, 06:50 PM
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I agree. Much is made of how smooth and quiet BMW diesels are for example,
but that's only because of heavy soundproofing on the car. If you are stood
at the roadside and the engine is started, then the old Massey Ferguson
sound appears. Not very sophisticated to hear a clack clack clackerty clack
instead of the classy smooth petrol V8. Maybe even a hybrid Bristol could
be a possibility one day and may be insisted upon if the mafia state known
as the EU get their own way.

I gather it appears diesel will have higher tax than for petrol on passenger
cars, because diesel gives out poisions that are causing asthma in the young
and old to a degree the government are very concerned. They want to take
the economic benefit away from diesel for passeneger cars and get the
population driving petrol hybrids. The funny thing is, the 2 places with
the worst air pollution are at number 1, Marylebone bus station in London
and at number 2, the bus station in Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester.
Sounds like it's public transport they should address first.

Andrew
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 27-02-09, 07:30 PM
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Default Alternative (green) Engines

Andrew,

If you are able to find a Mercedes 320CDI or 420CDI or even a VW 5.0
V10 diesel running and stand alongside them, they do not sound like
tractors or even lorries. I have heard a 335d BMW at 5 paces and it
is definitely louder than say a 330i petrol motor, but nothing
obtrusive and no clackety clack. With throtlle opened they sound
very similar to a rumbling V8 with more torque and thrust. The
latest technology has them running smoother and cleaner than engines
of even 10 years ago. If fuel consumption or CO2 wasn't an issue,
then a lovely supercharged V8 or V6 from any of the Germans would do
the trick. As far as particulate emissions are concerned recent
exhaust technology and cleanup methods inline behind the exhaust
certainly sorts out diesels. Note Alfa/Fiat do this sort of thing as
do Citroen/Peugeot/Ford/Jag/Land Rover and the German trio (EU
requirements). Basically burns the output to become null and void.
I am not a diesel aficionado, but for relaxed torquey pulling power
at reasonable economy it works.

My 406 engine is still being put together, but it will produce around
300+ bhp and more than 320 lbsft between 2500-5500 rpm with about 75%
of its torque available from 1800-2200 rpm. It is a 2.5 litre turbo
inter-cooled 4 cylinder 8 valve petrol motor. Due to its similar
weight to the original Bristol 6 the power to weight ratio will be
greater than 220 bhp per metric tonne, which is pretty darn god. For
comparison, a 411 S3 has about 197 bhp per metric tonne, assuming the
claims for the 383ci V8 producing 335 bhp. I reckon it was closer to
275 bhp in actual fact (mine was no more than 310 with a large 4
barrel Holley and decent exhausts - dyno checked). So my lighter 2.5
litre engine should get a lot more nimble performance than a 6.3
litre Chrysler V8. But then if I wanted an automatic with long legs
and good economy (my 2.5 litre should get mid to late 20's mpg) I
would plump for a diesel like a 320CDI motor or if one was available
a stonking 5.0 litre V10 from VW, although I do like Range Rover's
3.6 litre V8 diesel - nice and compact.

Clyde
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 27-02-09, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 406Special View Post
If fuel consumption or CO2 wasn't an issue,
then a lovely supercharged V8 or V6 from any of the Germans would do
the trick.
I think this should not be an issue for a car costing 200,000+.

Will someone who is able to spend sums like that on a car really be very interested in fuel consumption?

And there are quite a lot of interesting engines around at the moment, just look at the 6 litre 12-cyl motors of Aston Martin, Mercedes, Bentley (i.e. VW), BMW (incl. Rolls-Royce). So I don't really see a scarcity of appropriate engines if Chrysler should stop production.

As for CO2, I personally don't believe in CO2 induced climate change at all. But that's another question.

Regards,
Markus
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Old 28-02-09, 03:20 AM
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Default Alternative (green) Engines

Was waiting for that. Thanks, Clyde.

Sean
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 28-02-09, 07:27 AM
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I think we've had this discussion in the past. But it's all a bit of a moot point unless we get to the stage where Bristol can no longer get Chrysler engines. Even if Chrysler does close it's doors Bristol may get the chance to buy up enough stock of 360 engines to keep it going for several years, probably at bargain prices.

I'm fairly sure this was done in the past (Bristol having a stock of engines) because the engine in my '76 411 S5 was built in 1973.

PS. This thread has been moved as it was started in the wrong forum.
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Old 28-02-09, 07:50 AM
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Default Alternative (green) Engines

I think that nobody is looking at engines from a business aspect, the reason
the American V8's are used is that it is a simple powerful engine at Rock
Bottom Price. If you change this for a modern multi-cylinder engine from Europe
the price for the car would shoot though the roof. So with cars taking 2000
hours to build plus the difference in cost of a new engine and gearbox, it
would put the car into a whole new price group, so may be best to stick to an
established formulae especially as there may a few V8 engines on the market at
knock down prices.
My regards,
Bellerophon
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 28-02-09, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellerophon View Post
If you change this for a modern multi-cylinder engine from Europe the price for the car would shoot though the roof.
I don't think so. Just have a look at how much Mercedes or BMW ask for a replacement engine for their V12 cars.
And whether a Bristol costs 200,000 or 210,000 or 220,000 - do you really think this makes a big difference for the target customer?

Regards,
Markus
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Old 28-02-09, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Berzborn View Post
I don't think so. Just have a look at how much Mercedes or BMW ask for a replacement engine for their V12 cars.
And whether a Bristol costs 200,000 or 210,000 or 220,000 - do you really think this makes a big difference for the target customer?
Which Bristol cars are we talking about here? I thought the original post was about finding an alternative to the Chrysler V8 and the V8 engined Bristols don't cost 200,000, although granted, they're in a price bracket where an extra 10-20k probably still won't make much difference.

However, there are other things to consider for Bristol, even if they can still make the same margin on a new Blenheim sale. These modern BMW and Merc engines are extremely sophisticated, requiring specialist tools and equipment to diagnose, repair and service. Then there's the different (and very expensive) parts inventory and staff training. Last but not least, if you had a Bristol with a modern BMW or Merc engine in it, where would you take it for servicing? probably your nearest BMW or Merc dealership!
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Old 28-02-09, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Howard View Post
I thought the original post was about finding an alternative to the Chrysler V8 and the V8 engined Bristols don't cost 200,000
OK, not in British pounds. But the Blenheim 3 would be approx. 184,000 /$ 233,000 and the 3S 199,000/$ 252,000 - based on 15% VAT. In Germany, VAT is currently at 19%.

Quote:
if you had a Bristol with a modern BMW or Merc engine in it, where would you take it for servicing? probably your nearest BMW or Merc dealership!
Yes, probably. But currently, it is also not possible for every Bristol owner around the world to drive to London to have the car serviced at Bristol Cars Ltd.
But sure enough, it would be preferrable to continue using the Chrysler engines as long as possible.

Concerning the Diesel alternative, it is really rather a question of taste or tradition than of technology. I'm not so much a Diesel lover, but my sister used to have an S-Class diesel and now has a BMW X5 diesel. These engines are rather sophisticated and offer an enormous torque already at low rpm.
So this would make them suitable. But there is no denying if you start the car, you still hear very much it's a Diesel - not so much once it is on the road. Whether this is an issue or not, everyone must decide for himself.

Regards,
Markus

Last edited by Markus Berzborn; 28-02-09 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 28-02-09, 10:00 AM
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Default *Moved - Alternative (green) Engines

Up to a month ago I drove a Rover P6 as a driver. One thing I love about it
is the fact that the engine is not sophisticated. Neither am I, which makes
a good combination in case anything goes wrong 'cause most often one can
tweak it oneself to get going again.


And concerning this green CO2 hoax: when running on LPG and being well
maintained, emissions are very low. So I hope Bristol would go for an
American, light-weigt V8 with as little electronics as possible.
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 28-02-09, 10:54 AM
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I think fuel consumption is a factor and has been for years at Bristol. Why have they offered LPG as an alternative for the last 30 years? the LPG option has probably enabled the cars to be as theoretically cost effective as a 2.0litre Mondeo.

Also for the servicing, yes if you had a Merc or BMW engine fitted you could take it to their dealerships for servicing. It was suggested that you could take the Bristol to the Chrysler dealerships in the seventies for servicing (when they existed) as a 360V8 Chysler was briefly marketed in the UK at around this time. At the end of the day, the engine used, although good, is not the last word in sophistication compared to the modern day engines used by other luxury marques and a competant mechanic can probably do as much as a Bristol technician.

Obviously fitting say a V8 diesel is not easier said than done. All the ancillary bits would possibly have to be upgraded at the same time (ECU, electrics, air con etc)for compatibility, and for future improvements.
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Old 28-02-09, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
Up to a month ago I drove a Rover P6 as a driver. One thing I love about it is the fact that the engine is not sophisticated.
Have you got rid of it?

I love the P6, had two of them in the 1980s. A 3500 auto then a wonderful 3500S. Next time I see a nice one for sale here in Australia I'm going to buy it.

There is much to be said for simplicity in motor cars. I've had some wonderful modern cars but when they go wrong there is nothing you can do and if it's an intermittent electronics fault, God help you. I've had two Audis with an intermittent engine management fault and I ended up trading them both because in both cases the dealership couldn't fix the problem and one of them was still under warranty!

None of that nonsense in a Rover P6 or an older Bristol. I dare say the new Bristols aren't very complex compared with most modern cars and they should stay that way, at least in the engine bay anyway.
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Old 28-02-09, 12:36 PM
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Default *Moved - Alternative (green) Engines

As I'm not allowed to drive at the moment due to an arm injury and the car
was deteriorating from disuse, I gave it to a chap who's wel known in Dutch
P6 circles and who's going to restore it. If I can afford to buy it back
from him after restauration, I will.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 28-02-09, 12:46 PM
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i have one for sale maybe 3500 S P6

Edit: Peter, I have emailed you directly. Kevin.

Last edited by Kevin H; 28-02-09 at 02:02 PM.
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 28-02-09, 05:20 PM
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You say using modern engines from Germany would put the price through the
roof, but i'm not convinced. For example, I don't believe there is a price
issue with the Morgan Aero 8 which uses the latest big BMW V8. I really
don't see there being a problem with using modern German V8 engines in
Bristol Cars.

Andrew
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