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AB Rally

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Old 27-09-16, 12:33 PM
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Default AB Rally

I have been looking out for any coverage of the rally held in Connecticut and Vermont. Nothing to see? Maybe there would be more exposure if it wasn't led by a stolen Arnolt-Bristol. Owners should be proud to display what's left of these rare and beautiful cars. Unfortunate that it had to be an underground event due to the shady history of one car.
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Old 27-09-16, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoran View Post
I have been looking out for any coverage of the rally held in Connecticut and Vermont. Nothing to see? Maybe there would be more exposure if it wasn't led by a stolen Arnolt-Bristol. Owners should be proud to display what's left of these rare and beautiful cars. Unfortunate that it had to be an underground event due to the shady history of one car.
This post raises more questions than it answers.
More details please.
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Old 27-09-16, 03:12 PM
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As for any detailed coverage on the AB rally, I can only say there really isn't any other than seeing a photo of my dad's stolen car there. I am in the l process now of finishing up a detailed and accurate history of Arnolt-Bristol 404x3038 and our efforts to get it home. This will update the Indy Star article that Cargirl posted a link to last year . I will post that history on this forum and social media in the weeks to come. Thanks for your interest.
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Old 27-09-16, 05:11 PM
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Are you seriously trying to imply that the Arnolt Bristol club would have held a rally in secret just because a car was present at the event which your late father sold years ago to a purchaser who defaulted on a private hire purchase agreement having sold it on.
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Old 27-09-16, 05:30 PM
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The rally was club sponsored? Is the implication here that the car isn't a stolen car?

Last edited by tdoran; 27-09-16 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 27-09-16, 05:52 PM
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I am not sure if your last posting is asking a question or making a statement but either way if the meeting was sponsored by the club or organised by it directly does it make any difference, are you not still implying that it held the rally in secret due to the presence of a car previously owned by your late father.
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Old 27-09-16, 06:18 PM
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Yes, I believe the rally was held in secret because of the the stolen car and my pursuit of it.
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Old 27-09-16, 07:22 PM
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Its very sad that your father lost out on the deal when he sold the car, the purchaser selling it and defaulting on the loan agreement. One of the law professors commenting on the matter in the article Cargirl posted the link to suggests that this might have constituted theft at the time but this was disputed by lawyers acting for a subsequent owner and the interpretation they put on the situation is sadly more compelling and it is very doubtful if any court, especially now, would regard this as a stolen car, therefore the current owner almost certainly has good title to it.
I could understand an Auction house being cautious if they were asked to sell it because of your on going action but what I just don't get is why the club if they view the car as so suspect would hold a meeting in secret rather than just tell the owner not to bring it, more to the point if that was the case why did other owners participate in the event.
If it was a local event rather than a national meet that might explain the lack of press coverage rather than a cover up.
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Old 27-09-16, 08:15 PM
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Excellent reply, based on the information you have. I have learned so much more on this since the Indy Star article. Theft is theft regardless of the passage of time. We still have the only clear title to 3038. I have NO personal vendetta, if you will, against this current "owner". All we are after is dad's car back home where it belongs. To answer your question at the end, with what I know about this matter I can't understand why anyone would attend his event.
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Old 28-09-16, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoran View Post
To answer your question at the end, with what I know about this matter I can't understand why anyone would attend his event.
Possibly because they couldn't care less?

Quote:
All we are after is dad's car back home where it belongs.
From what I recall, your dad SOLD the car. He didn't want it any more, because he had done racing it and had moved on to another car. He allowed someone to drive off in the car, never expecting to see it again. So it wasn't "stolen".

I gather that your dad agreed that the buyer of the car could pay for it in installments and the buyer made some payments, but not all that were required.

Your dad should have pursued the debtor. Had he done so, he would have probably got the rest of his money, but in all likelihood he wouldn't have got the car back, so I don't see how you can argue that it "belongs" back home.

You're just saying that because it's now worth a lot of money.
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Old 28-09-16, 09:06 AM
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All I can say to that is reread the Indy Star article. We have documentation proving our efforts to repo the car dad never really wanted to sell in the first place. My own search for 3038 started almost 30 years ago, long before everyone started adding zeros to the value of these cars.
I've stated before, we don't want the car back just to run off to the auction block and cash in. When it comes home its to stay. Very interesting, everyone's take on this.
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Old 29-09-16, 12:36 PM
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We've all sold cars we didn't really want to sell, and there are certainly cars I regret selling. That's life.

"When the car comes home?" Unless you have some contract documentation between your dad and the guy he sold it to, then all you have is anecdotal evidence that won't stand up in court.

Let's face it, if you had evidence that the car was actually stolen, you would have it back by now, just like this guy has his E-Type back, which was actually stolen ... Stolen E-Type Jaguar to be returned to owner - 46 years on - BBC News
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Old 29-09-16, 02:09 PM
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The documentation you're saying I don't have is already in the Indy Star article, with more to come. There's hardly anything anecdotal about the title still in my dad's name.
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Old 29-09-16, 02:25 PM
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A broker that can't do his research buys a stolen car and gets a free pass but I'm called on the carpet for trying to get the car back. I'm sure there's other brokers seeing this forum, can't wait to see their thoughts on this subject.
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Old 29-09-16, 02:52 PM
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Default Disputed ownership

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoran View Post
A broker that can't do his research buys a stolen car and gets a free pass but I'm called on the carpet for trying to get the car back. I'm sure there's other brokers seeing this forum, can't wait to see their thoughts on this subject.
Well I would be one of those brokers as I deal with many Arnolt-Bristols. All brokers are presented with suspected stolen or fake cars at some point in their careers. Our job is to do our research and keep them out of the hands of our unsuspecting clients. It is never any fun having to go back to the seller and explain to them that their car has an unsavory past. But again it is part of the job.

I have asked this question before. At the time of purchase how exactly was this current owner to know the history of the car? The Indy Star article only came out last summer. Well after the purchase of the car. How exactly was he to know the history of this particular Arnolt-Bristol?

Last edited by Cargirl; 29-09-16 at 07:33 PM. Reason: Clarified my post
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Old 29-09-16, 03:14 PM
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I answered this in another post. The broker in question told me he was aware of the history on 3038 but dismissed it as just a story. There are plenty of Arnolt-Bristol enthusiasts that have known our story for many years. Lee Raskin, Mike DiCola, Kenneth Andren, John Schefflin, I'm sure there's more.
For that matter, according to past registries the car was in Wesport and at Chinetti motors. Very close to where it is now. The names in the registry would've been a good place to start his research.
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Old 29-09-16, 10:11 PM
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Unless the purchaser knew the people you refer to there is little chance they would have picked up on this matter, the Indy Star report is recent, do an internet search for stolen Arnolt Bristol and this forum and the Indy Star report is all that comes up.
This is not a high profile 'Stolen Car' , in the UK a registration document does not prove ownership , is it different in the US and if so in all States. There must be countless people all over the world who hold old registration documents or title documents for cars long gone, sold or scrapped, that does not give them the right to claim ownership of a vehicle still in existence. What also weakens your argument in my view is the recently obtained title document referred to in the Indy Star feature, this should in my view never have been issued as the car was not in your possession or at the time owned by either you or your father.
Nobody in their right mind is going to hand you this vehicle back without a hell of a legal fight no matter how hard you use this and other forums and social media sites to state your case and I doubt very much if you would be making such a fuss about this if it was a $100 Ford.
Your father lost $3000 as a result of a deal gone bad , you need to focus on that and the protection given to buyers who purchase a vehicle in good faith, the time elapsed since the original sale, the number of times the car has changed hands and where it has been since your father sold it.
The only conclusion I draw from the Indy Star article is that if this matter does eventually go to court the only winners will be the Lawyers.
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Old 29-09-16, 10:43 PM
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Full disclosure of the situation was made when we updated the title. I was actually advised by local law enforcement to do so. You are correct, there will be a hell of a fight but I do intend to see this through. And yes I would still pursue this regardless the value of the car. Money means nothing really to me.
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Old 29-09-16, 11:22 PM
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Consider this then and it might be a very bitter pill to swallow, If the car is with a dealer and for sale would it not be better to purchase it back rather than spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on a legal fight you might not win.
If you loose you could end up paying the other sides legal costs and the whole lot could easily exceed the value of the car even at today's high values.
Money might mean nothing to you but that won't feel so good if you get landed with huge legal bills and still don't get the car back.
We were in a very similar situation many years ago although the car in question was nowhere near as rare as an Arnolt , we took legal advice, there was no way we were going to get the car back and no way we were going to get any more money out of the purchaser.
I must say that your law enforcement people were right in suggesting full disclosure of the situation but advising you to renew the title on a car which was not in your possession!
And the licensing department likewise for issuing you new documents, over here that would cut no Ice as they would contact the current registered keeper if they were in the UK and in most cases inspect the vehicle in question, but then we have a national rather than a state system for vehicle registration.
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Old 29-09-16, 11:56 PM
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The bitter pill would be not seeing this through. I do appreciate your view on this based on the knowledge you have on this. I wish I could share more details and I will when the time is right.
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