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8 & 10 cyl Bristol cars Type 407 onwards - restoration, repair, maintenance etc

410 exhaust manifold

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Old 22-05-15, 10:47 AM
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Default 410 exhaust manifold

The left hand exhaust manifold on my 410 has been damaged by a transport company delivering it to my house. Apparently it is not possible to get new ones, or even second hand ones. Bristol Cars have suggested having it welded but I am not sure this would be very durable.

Has anyone else had this problem? Any suggestions as to how I might solve this problem? Brian May has suggested that this is a fairly common issue so I am wondering if it would be worth having a batch made, assuming this is possible.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

Bob Livermore
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Old 22-05-15, 01:53 PM
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You have been misinformed about availability, but doubtless it is more difficult on your side of the Atlantic. These log manifolds come up pretty frequently, and are usually cheap, so persuading someone to ship it to you and the expense of doing so would be your main obstacle. There is a forum that deals with vehicles with our engines (and I am assuming that yours still has its stock Wide Block Poly 318 in it). Don't be offended to find that it is a pickup truck forum:
http://www.dodgesweptline.org/phorum/index.php

I would post a wanted ad in their classifieds section:
DTAForums :: Buy/Sell/Wanted

And I would certainly contact this chap just in case:
Poly 318 Stock Exhaust Manifolds...

Even though he's likely sold them, he may know of more. The type of people on these forums tend to be very honest but prickly by nature. My approach with them is to trust them completely and send the money up front. I have never been cheated. If you proceed with normal British caution, these fellows take offense and go away.

This is what your manifolds should look like if you have the stock engine:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg poly 318.JPG (159.1 KB, 18 views)
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Old 22-05-15, 02:11 PM
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Default 410 manifolds

The factory items are really heavy and inefficient. ACCS used to stock ss tubular items that address both. Peter
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Old 22-05-15, 02:16 PM
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They are heavy..... an extra 5 pounds or so!! And certainly SS ones are a viable option to consider. They aren't original though, and even with the old ones you have a 130 mph car, how fast do you want to go!?

The seldom-mentioned disadvantage of the nice, thin walled, smooth headers is that they do not dissipate heat evenly over their surface in the same way as cast iron does, and vapour lock is more likely with them, especially if your petrol has that nasty eco-fraud ethanol added to it.

Last edited by Bryn Tirion; 22-05-15 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 22-05-15, 05:35 PM
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Default 410 manifold

I'm not sure if the engines change from time to time, but here are a couple of eBay ads for Chrysler 318 manifolds that may be what you need:

1967 72 Dart Duster Barracuda 273 318 340 Exhaust Manifold Pair Plymouth A | eBay

Dodge 318 Left Exhaust Manifold 1956 1957 1958 Casting 1634445 Hollander 253 | eBay
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Old 22-05-15, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter.Kent View Post
The factory items are really heavy and inefficient. ACCS used to stock ss tubular items that address both. Peter
Thanks Peter. Can you tell me who ACCS are and how to contact them. I have seen them mentioned several times in forum posts.
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Old 22-05-15, 10:44 PM
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Thanks Bryn and guymd. I will check these out.

My manifold doesn't look like these though. The exhaust pipe union is at the rear end of mine rather than in the middle. I wonder if they differed from car to car?
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Old 22-05-15, 10:52 PM
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I don't know why the shapes are different, since the two links I sent you both claim to be for 318 engines. But the one whose title begins "Dodge 318..." is linear in the way you describe, with the exit at one end.
Although it states that it's from a 1956-1958, maybe it's correct?
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Old 22-05-15, 11:03 PM
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Bob.... it would be interesting to see a picture, of your exhaust manifold(s) and of your engine. Your manifold doesn't look like the one in this listing does it?

65 66 67 68 69 Dodge Plymouth Chrysler B C Body 273 318 Exhaust Manifold | eBay

..... which is for a later or LA designation 318. Not the original Poly Wide Block (official designation is as an A engine). This would mean your engine had been swapped for a later LA. The definitive test is to look at the lower edge of your valve (rocker) covers and see if they are scalloped, as in the attached picture. If yes, you have an original-style Poly, if no, you have another engine, more than likely an LA 318.

Edit: I should add that a complicating factor is that the early 313 Bristol engines were really 1960 Plymouth units, and the later 318 Bristols probably had the Dodge Dart unit of 1964 or so, with a four barrel Carter instead of the 2 barrel unit affixed by Dodge. Pictures of your engine could possibly help clear things up. Do you know if your carburettor is a Carter 3131S by any chance?
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File Type: jpg poly.JPG (100.0 KB, 21 views)

Last edited by Bryn Tirion; 23-05-15 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 22-05-15, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymd View Post
I'm not sure if the engines change from time to time, but here are a couple of eBay ads for Chrysler 318 manifolds that may be what you need:

1967 72 Dart Duster Barracuda 273 318 340 Exhaust Manifold Pair Plymouth A | eBay

Dodge 318 Left Exhaust Manifold 1956 1957 1958 Casting 1634445 Hollander 253 | eBay
Both wrong.... the upper one is for the later LA engine, the lower one for the earlier Dodge engine. 1956 is too early for this series.

All this ignorance is due to the secretiveness of the Crook... bunch, who were fitting outdated engines that they bought (no doubt very cheaply) from Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge, who were at the time changing from the cast-iron Poly A engines to the new LA style. They were doubtless very happy to find someone who wanted to take a bunch off their hands. As it happened, the Poly engine was an excellent unit, with very high power to weight ratio and easy breathing, and American engines were streets ahead of British engines in output.... it was after all one of the grand periods of engine design, in the early 50's to late 60's, where all the developments were coming from the States. That situation changed dramatically in the 70's.
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Old 23-05-15, 12:53 AM
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The rear exit manifold configuration was used by Bristol because the Bristol has a narrow engine bay compared to the Plodges that the engine came from.

As for the 313 and 318 engine, I thought there were identical other than the bore.

I recall reading an Automobile Quarterly article called "Maple Leaf Mutants", which explained that Chrysler had a bias to it's US market in favor of Canada. So the Chrysler cars offered by Canadian dealers were in effect last year's US model, or sometimes older.

I believe the 313 engine enabled Chrysler to offer what was essentially the same V8 engine in both markets, with the Canadian 313 being perceived as inferior to the American 318. There may have been some difference in carburation options also, such as the "Power Pack".

Edited: "313 and 313" to "313 and 318" !

Last edited by Kevin H; 23-05-15 at 12:54 AM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old 23-05-15, 02:05 AM
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Forgive me dear Mod, but I think you are not entirely accurate. I have made something of a study of this over the last 15 years, and have (I believe) every Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth, including Canadian editions, of the workshop manuals for all car (not truck or motor home or combine harvester though) variants that took the specific wide body poly engines featured in the 407 to 410 models. At the bottom I attach a page from the excellent Bristol 408 parts book, which reproduces Plymouth manual pages in its engine and transmission sections, not surprisingly. The centre-outlet exhaust manifold pictured there was from the 1960 Plymouth (Canadian market) 313 c.i. engine. No changes. Bristol used this specific engine in the 407 and 408 cars, then an identical (I believe) 318 poly for the 409, but by the 410 had to use a different engine. This may well be what Bob has in his 410, and I have often speculated that this must be the Dodge Dart variant. This did have an exhaust manifold with the outlet at the rear (in the Dart.... nothing to do with Bristol!) which is why I'd like to see a picture of Bob's, but one must be cautious because the later LA engine also had a rear outlet, and that is an entirely different engine, although it would have been a very easy retrofit into a Bristol.
=============
On a related topic, I believe that all models from 407 to 410 used the Carter AFB 3131S carburettor, and I would be very interested to hear if there are other apparently original carburettors in these cars. In North America, the 3131S was only fitted to one series of cars, namely the 1960 to 1962 Dodge Dart with US built 318 V8. It has been claimed many times in the past that the Bristol engine had a Plymouth Power Pak option (note the quirky spelling), but this appears to be not strictly true, since that option (which for 1960 was called Super Pak) came with a series of other AFB carburettors, closely related, but with quite different jetting. If you look at the performance specs given for the 313 by Bristol, they are effectively identical to a stock 1960 Plymouth Belvedere sedan with the AFB carburettor option, although a quite different carburettor was used. Frankly I think Bristol just copied all the numbers out of the Plymouth manual.

At the bottom I have added pictures of the 1960 Plymouth Torqueflite buttons: note that they are round and without a Park button. These buttons changed completely every model year, and were unique to the particular range of cars they occurred in. If you own a 407 or 408 Mk.1 you will find that picture very familiar. They are specifically Plymouth and one year, 1960. I have also attached an extract from a 1960 Plymouth brochure discussing some of the engine options. As you will see, there is a Super-Pak option which closely matches 407 and 408 performance figures. And these were family sedans..... no nod, nod, wink wink, Bristol did some clever things to make those American engines perform better, as Mr. Crook was telling the motoring correspondents back in 1963 or so. Just standard American engineering.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 313.JPG (196.1 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg buttons.JPG (83.5 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg super pak.JPG (47.2 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by Bryn Tirion; 23-05-15 at 02:42 AM.
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Old 23-05-15, 02:12 AM
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313 Canadian market vs. 318 US market: In the 1960s Canada still had a road taxation system based on the egregious RAC horsepower system. This caused a rise in road taxes to come with an increase in bore, rather than stroke. To fit the Canadian variant of the 318 poly engine into a slightly cheaper taxation class, bore was reduced. Nothing to do with making poor old Canadians think they had an inferior car!
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Old 23-05-15, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryn Tirion View Post
Forgive me dear Mod, but I think you are not entirely accurate.
I stand corrected. I should have first taken a look at the parts list in the resources section on this site Resources - Bristol Cars - Owners and Enthusiasts Forum

Bit embarrassing really given it was I who scanned and uploaded the parts manual!
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Old 23-05-15, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin H View Post
I stand corrected. I should have first taken a look at the parts list in the resources section on this site Resources - Bristol Cars - Owners and Enthusiasts Forum

Bit embarrassing really given it was I who scanned and uploaded the parts manual!
The virtue is in having scanned and uploaded them..... I don't think you were expected to memorise 'em too!

Do you have an exploded head diagram for the 410 by any chance? I would very much like to see that manifold.
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Old 23-05-15, 09:27 PM
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I have found my 409/410 parts book (I had forgotten I owned one!) and I see that it uses the same illustration of a log-style exhaust manifold with medially located outlet. I am suspicious that you may have a non-standard engine, Bob.
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Old 23-05-15, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryn Tirion View Post
313 Canadian market vs. 318 US market: In the 1960s Canada still had a road taxation system based on the egregious RAC horsepower system. This caused a rise in road taxes to come with an increase in bore, rather than stroke. To fit the Canadian variant of the 318 poly engine into a slightly cheaper taxation class, bore was reduced. Nothing to do with making poor old Canadians think they had an inferior car!
That's interesting Bryn. Was it based on the sum of the bore of all cylinders in the engine? (surely not the bore of one cylinder?)

Nevertheless, there does appear to have been some favouritism shown to the US market. Some of Chrysler's cars available in the US were never offered in Canada and Canadian cars were still given the older poly engines after the US market had moved on to the B series engines. Not a bad thing for earlier V8 Bristol owners looking for parts!

As for the "Crook bunch", I don't think we should be too harsh on them. After all they had a private car company to run which needed to be profitable. Maybe their use of cheaper engines was one of the reasons why they outlasted all other prestige marques that bought in a Chrysler power train, and many other companies who developed their own. In fact if it wasn't for the cost of developing the Fighter, Bristol still might never had gone bust.

Of course we now know the "Bristolisation" of Chrysler engines was BS, but in those days, in the UK market at least, most car manufacturers marketing departments were full of it
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Old 23-05-15, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryn Tirion View Post
Bob.... it would be interesting to see a picture, of your exhaust manifold(s) and of your engine. Your manifold doesn't look like the one in this listing Pictures of your engine could possibly help clear things up. Do you know if your carburettor is a Carter 3131S by any chance?
Bryn, I have attached some photos of the engine and tried to show the manifold as best I can.

Bob
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File Type: jpg 20150523_093847.jpg (944.7 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg 20150523_093902.jpg (1.05 MB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg 20150523_093914.jpg (444.3 KB, 25 views)
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Old 23-05-15, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin H View Post
That's interesting Bryn. Was it based on the sum of the bore of all cylinders in the engine? (surely not the bore of one cylinder?)

Nevertheless, there does appear to have been some favouritism shown to the US market. Some of Chrysler's cars available in the US were never offered in Canada and Canadian cars were still given the older poly engines after the US market had moved on to the B series engines. Not a bad thing for earlier V8 Bristol owners looking for parts!

As for the "Crook bunch", I don't think we should be too harsh on them. After all they had a private car company to run which needed to be profitable. Maybe their use of cheaper engines was one of the reasons why they outlasted all other prestige marques that bought in a Chrysler power train, and many other companies who developed their own. In fact if it wasn't for the cost of developing the Fighter, Bristol still might never had gone bust.

Of course we now know the "Bristolisation" of Chrysler engines was BS, but in those days, in the UK market at least, most car manufacturers marketing departments were full of it

You are quite right of course. Bristol survived amazingly well where others like Allards and Alvis had to fold, and the salvation was largely due to finding the right American engine and packaging it very well (because of course Allard and Alvis and other UK luxury manufacturers had been using American V8's for quite a while too). I do however find the Crook & Co. variety of BS very condescending and arrogant when read. Bristol did however do many things very well, and certainly any V8 Bristol would outhandle any of the Chrysler Corporation products using the same power train. Other things like the owner's handbook and parts books were exceptionally well done for such a small manufacturer, and must have cost a fortune relative to production numbers, and for me the 408 to early 411 cars were lovely beasts indeed.

There were big differences in the US and Canadian market. Primarily because Canada was poorer and more agricultural than the US, and so Canadian models tended to be more spartan, although just as large. Canadians tend to be very large, after all! Quite a few manufacturers would not offer V8 engines in Canadian models, but only a couple of straight six models. This was probably true until the mid Sixties, when Canadian prosperity increased greatly to be close to par with the US.


Taxable Horsepower:
This was pretty common and found in most European countries in one form or another dating from the 1920s up to the post WW2 period. Most systems were based on bore and stroke and number of cylinders, but the British system was largely unique in being based entirely on bore (expressed as piston surface area) and number of cylinders, to the exclusion of stroke, probably since the ratio between bore and stroke was fairly uniform in early cars. The British system was the RAC system, but it was also employed throughout the British Empire and Commonwealth. I don't know when it was phased out, but you Australians would have had it too. The Canadian Plymouths and Dodges (in Canada frequently just badge engineered, unlike the US) were exported in large numbers to the Commonwealth, and so the story is that the 318 was reduced in bore to 313 not just for Canada, but to satisfy export requirements from other CW countries. If you can find when these RAC rating-based taxes were phased out in Australia it would be very interesting. In UK, 1948 saw their demise, since their inevitable consequence had been to lengthen stroke dramatically, but one presumes the Commonwealth kept them on for another decade or so.

Note:
RAC horsepower was calculated by taking the piston diameter in inches and squaring it, then multiplying by the number of cylinders and dividing the product by 2.5. Quite arbitrary eventually, but in 1925 or so not very far off for a BHP estimate.

Last edited by Bryn Tirion; 23-05-15 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 23-05-15, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by livermoreb View Post
Bryn, I have attached some photos of the engine and tried to show the manifold as best I can.

Bob
Ve-e-e-e-ry interesting!! Then what you have is (apparently) a later poly, but still a poly 318. The 410 parts book that I have lies in its teeth....well, at least about the manifold shape.

The good news is that there should be no problem in finding one. I believe that this is one:

61 62 63 64 Dodge Plymouth 318 V8 Engine Motor Left Exhaust Manifold | eBay

..... and here's another:

1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 318 Poly Exhaust Manifold Savoy Polara Belvedere LH | eBay

..... snap one up, Bob!!

Note: the critical thing to look for is that the square 'oles are upright, not angled, as they would be in the later LA manifold, which otherwise looks very similar.
Note 2: the colour is also quite interesting. If originally red that indicates a Dodge rather than Plymouth origin. Nice clean engine BTW.

Last edited by Bryn Tirion; 23-05-15 at 11:17 PM.
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